1. Subscriberjosephw
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    04 Jul '12 21:341 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Considering the extraordinary complexity of deadly diseases such as AIDS, malaria, the flu, dysentery etc, it seams reasonable to say that if the complexity of life points to intelligent design, then these diseases do too.
    So the question then is why were they designed and by whom?
    Suffering is usually blamed on Adam or Satan or a combination of both.
    t styles in the genetic code the write? Do you think maybe Satan signs his name on his pieces?
    I believe there is only one being that can create something from nothing.

    The micro organisms that cause death in humans may be mutations of something that once existed in perfect harmony with the rest of creation. Apparently Satan can have an effect on the weather, so perhaps he can cause mutations of otherwise "good bugs".

    If you're going to ask a Bible believing Christian you're going to hear what God said: "cursed is the ground for thy sake;"

    That may or may not have anything to do with how or why diseases exist, but the inference is that now we will die from whatever gets to us.
  2. Windsor, Ontario
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    04 Jul '12 21:37
    Originally posted by josephw
    I believe there is only one being that can create something from nothing.

    The micro organisms that cause death in humans may be mutations of something that once existed in perfect harmony with the rest of creation. Apparently Satan can have an effect on the weather, so perhaps he can cause mutations of otherwise "good bugs".

    If you're going to ask a Bi ...[text shortened]... or why diseases exist, but the inference is that now we will die from whatever gets to us.
    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -biblegod
  3. Subscriberjosephw
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    04 Jul '12 21:53
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -biblegod
    Provide the reference. bibleboob
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    04 Jul '12 23:03
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    To restate my point in case it wasn't clear:
    1. Those that promote Intelligent design claim that the complexity of life points to an intelligent designer (and they usually promote the idea of a single specific such intelligent designer).
    2. The complexity of diseases suggests that they too must have been intelligently designed. They did not come about v ...[text shortened]... e?
    b. If God is the intelligent designer is there some reasonable explanation for his actions?
    This is a hard one. We could only quess due to our limited knowledge. There are prophecies about disease in the Holy Bible. But perhaps, these small organisms were meant to perform a good purpose originally. I have heard that bacteria can clean up oil spills and we need good bacteria to help our bodies in digestion of food. Of course, these bad organism don't seem to serve any usful purpose and seem to cause more harm than good. Maybe man will understand it all someday.
  5. Windsor, Ontario
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    04 Jul '12 23:06
    Originally posted by josephw
    Provide the reference. bibleboob
    you mean to tell me you don't recognize that scripture? you mean to tell me you can't plug it into a search engine and discover it in 3 seconds?

    try it. it'll be the first hit.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    04 Jul '12 23:30
    Originally posted by josephw
    Provide the reference. bibleboob
    http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-7.htm
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    04 Jul '12 23:52
    Originally posted by FMF
    Is it your view that God designed and created AIDS and HIV?
    Is it your view that God designed and created AIDS and HIV?


    Might as well have. It could not happen without His permission.

    Maybe one day, we will see that the common cold is something else which had perhaps some other purpose.

    Why do you ask me this ?
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    04 Jul '12 23:561 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Why do you ask me this ?
    Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

    Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.
  9. Subscriberjosephw
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    05 Jul '12 00:45
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    you mean to tell me you don't recognize that scripture? you mean to tell me you can't plug it into a search engine and discover it in 3 seconds?

    try it. it'll be the first hit.
    God did not create evil. Do you remember what was written in Genesis? "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

    If you want to know what the passage means simply look it up under commentaries on Isaiah 45:7.
  10. Windsor, Ontario
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    05 Jul '12 05:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    God did not create evil. Do you remember what was written in Genesis? "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

    If you want to know what the passage means simply look it up under commentaries on Isaiah 45:7.
    the trouble is, i did look it up. you apparently didn't.

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these."

    nope. biblegod creates evil. he says so right there.

    the word for evil is "ra'"

    רָעַע (H7489)

    1) bad, evil

    a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

    b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

    c) evil, displeasing

    d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

    e) bad (of value)

    f) worse than, worst (comparison)

    g) sad, unhappy

    h) evil (hurtful)

    i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

    j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

    1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

    2) deeds, actions

    n m

    2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

    a) evil, distress, adversity

    b) evil, injury, wrong

    c) evil (ethical)

    n f

    3) evil, misery, distress, injury

    a) evil, misery, distress

    b) evil, injury, wrong

    c) evil (ethical)

    ======================================
    we have biblegod's confession. it's supported in other parts of the bible. biblegod causes evil destruction, pestilence, famine, genocide. it's all there.
  11. Cape Town
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    05 Jul '12 07:04
    Originally posted by josephw
    I believe there is only one being that can create something from nothing.
    So you are not necessarily an intelligent design advocate? Or do you think God may have created the universe and others may have put together what is in it, including some life forms?

    The micro organisms that cause death in humans may be mutations of something that once existed in perfect harmony with the rest of creation. Apparently Satan can have an effect on the weather, so perhaps he can cause mutations of otherwise "good bugs".
    The question here is whether they could have evolved into 'bad bugs' purely via evolution or whether there was a 'guiding force'. If it was the former, then you cannot claim that the complexity of life is evidence of an intelligent designer.

    If you're going to ask a Bible believing Christian you're going to hear what God said: "cursed is the ground for thy sake;"
    That may or may not have anything to do with how or why diseases exist, but the inference is that now we will die from whatever gets to us.

    That is really a separate topic, but I have always thought it very unjust of God to punish some people because of the actions of others.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    05 Jul '12 07:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So you are not necessarily an intelligent design advocate? Or do you think God may have created the universe and others may have put together what is in it, including some life forms?

    [b]The micro organisms that cause death in humans may be mutations of something that once existed in perfect harmony with the rest of creation. Apparently Satan can have ...[text shortened]... thought it very unjust of God to punish some people because of the actions of others.
    Do you think that God punishes some people because of the actions of others?
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    05 Jul '12 07:56
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    the trouble is, i did look it up. you apparently didn't.

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these."

    nope. biblegod creates evil. he says so right there.

    the word for evil is "ra'"

    רָעַע (H7489)

    1) bad, evil

    a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

    b) bad, un ...[text shortened]... ible. biblegod causes evil destruction, pestilence, famine, genocide. it's all there.
    That means you better watch out then, ha, ha.
    HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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    05 Jul '12 08:49
    if god did invent aids, malaria, the flu, dysentery and all the rest does it mean he hates poor people more than the rich? as the poorer you are the more likely you will catch these things and are much more likely to die from them.
    does he really hate africa? what did africa do to upset him? they seem to be getting both barrels from gods aids and malaria shotgun.
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    05 Jul '12 11:10
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Considering the extraordinary complexity of deadly diseases such as AIDS, malaria, the flu, dysentery etc, it seams reasonable to say that if the complexity of life points to intelligent design, then these diseases do too.
    So the question then is why were they designed and by whom?
    Suffering is usually blamed on Adam or Satan or a combination of both.
    ...[text shortened]... t styles in the genetic code the write? Do you think maybe Satan signs his name on his pieces?
    it is possible that one flaw in a hypothesis doesn't render the whole hypothesis false. we simply need to adjust it.

    in this case i am not arguing for intelligent design as a valid scientific theory. it is not. i am arguing that just because one found something that contradicts a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent deity, doesn't mean that such deity doesn't exist at all. perhaps we simply wrongly assumed some characteristics about that deity.

    you say that intelligent design means god actively created diseases. what if intelligent design only means god put forth a process (evolution) and stuff came out. So, inevitably, some organisms would appear that aren't beneficial to others. after all, wolves aren't beneficial to some sheep or even humans.

    i don't like the concept "intelligent design". in a system this big, some must draw the short straw like the dodo did so some might call it "less intelligent" because some aren't happy. also it doesn't account for humans willfully exterminating other species. it is a system that works. a system that since it's creation it has produced countless species and ultimately us. it didn't give us wings or gills. our sight isn't as good as the hawk's.

    god created a sandbox with some basic rules and let everyone be. possible to even have nudged some stuff along the way.


    in understand i didn't played under your rules. your original post set some conditions i am not comfortable with. (adam or satan responsible for suffering, god intentionally creating diseases, etc). i dismiss those. if that is the direction you wish to take the debate (and have it with the fundamentalists), i apologize for this slightly offtopic post.
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