Originally posted by sonhouse
If we have such a beneficent god, why would it let hundreds of millions die in wars?

why would he step in something we created ourselves? if we have free will, it stands to reason we should be free to fuk things up for it.

some people believe we would be judged for what we do in this life (i believe so to, one way or another). what would be there to judge if we are only able to do what god wants. we must be willing to do that, because it is right, and because we actively choose right over wrong.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what if intelligent design only means god put forth a process (evolution) and stuff came out.

As you correctly point out, I am arguing specifically from the point of view of people who claim evolution could not have happened without intelligent input during its process and that current life forms are evidence of this intelligent input.
I am saying that the intelligent design claim leads to other conclusions which also need to be addressed.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why would he step in something we created ourselves? if we have free will, it stands to reason we should be free to fuk things up for it.

As I mentioned earlier, that argument falls apart for those that die and don't get much choice in the matter.

some people believe we would be judged for what we do in this life (i believe so to, one way or another). what would be there to judge if we are only able to do what god wants. we must be willing to do that, because it is right, and because we actively choose right over wrong.
So he lets us do wrong in the hope of being able to punish us later?
I also don't see how this argument would have any relevance when it comes to disease.

Originally posted by FMF
Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.

Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.

I was not speaking to twhitehead's OP primarily. I was responding to someone else's comment for the most part.

Now - let's remove uncertainty then. I believe that from the fall of man God is ultimately responsible for things very unfortunate which happen in nature.

I do not know exactly HOW these things all came about. So in that area of how God does this, I reserve the right to be uncertain.

But ultimately, Job KNEW that God was behind the whirlwind, the desease, the death of his kids, the ruin of his crops. I don't think Job mentioned anyone else as the culprit except his God which he refused to not trust.

So FMF, I said, "Might as Well" be God. But I reserve the right to not know ALL of the details of His permissive will, His sovereign allowance. His control of what His enemy could do to damage the earth and mankind.

There are some unknowns to me about this interaction. But nothing could ultimately be happening without God's will.

Is that clearer ? Cause if you press the matter further you'll get more of the same with examples.

This matter of God being behind all these things is captured in Paul's words that to the lovers of God "all things" work out together for good to the proper human heart.

"And we [Christians] know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

"ALL THINGS" means "all things". AIDS, HIV, Tornadoes, War, Persecution, Rape, Abortion, Calamity, A democrat being elected president, Religious people blowing it, etc, etc, etc,

To those who love God "all things work together for good to those WHO LOVE GOD, to those who are called according to His purpose."

The death of the Son of God on the cross should be the master key of history to demonstrate that God is able by His sovereignty to cause ALL THINGS to work TOGETHER for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

Originally posted by twhitehead
As I mentioned earlier, that argument falls apart for those that die and don't get much choice in the matter.

[b]some people believe we would be judged for what we do in this life (i believe so to, one way or another). what would be there to judge if we are only able to do what god wants. we must be willing to do that, because it is right, and because ...[text shortened]... later?
I also don't see how this argument would have any relevance when it comes to disease.

"that argument falls apart for those that die and don't get much choice in the matter."
that isn't a matter of free will, it is a matter of dealing with life threatening hazards. you don't make god prevent someone to spill radioactive sludge in your river just because you must absolutely drink from that river. your free will allows you to not drink from that river. it allows you to have your government restrict the polluter from mucking up the river. there is much you can do without god removing free will. and if in the end you die, you lose at life. if someone decides to kill you by stabbing you 20 times, at no point during those 20 stabbing is your free will removed. your moral right to live is broken, but that is a different thing.



"So he lets us do wrong in the hope of being able to punish us later?"
he lets us do what we want because that is what life is about. personally i don't believe in judgement as punishment as depicted in the bible (eternal anguish and suffering for breaking some rules during the course of 70 years ) it would be more like a score for how well (or bad) you played the game of life. probably some atonement might be in order. whether or not there will be judgement, god allows bad things to happen because he wants us to have free will above all else.

"I also don't see how this argument would have any relevance when it comes to disease."
it doesn't. i was responding to sonhouse and his "why would god let people die in wars " argument.

Originally posted by jaywill

Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.

I was not speaking to twhitehead's OP primarily. I was responding to som ER for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

the god depicted in the book of job uses human beings (meaning creatures he loved so much that he sent his only son to suffer for them) as nothing more than props in a bet he made with satan(!!!) to prove to satan (why would god have anything to prove to satan) that job is a swell guy. this argument is further proven when god kills also the servants of job (some poor dude gathering money to send to his poor family), job's family and quite a lot of livestock (animal cruelty). human beings are further objectified when god simply gives other servants and other sons and daughters when he is done playing with job.

all of it to prove to satan something god already knew. because he was god.



as a christian, i submit the idea that the god invented in the book of job is a horrible person.

Originally posted by jaywill

Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.

I was not speaking to twhitehead's OP primarily. I was responding to som ...[text shortened]... ER for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

That strikes me as an amazingly fatalistic mindset and a denial of all responsibility for actions:

"ALL THINGS" means "all things". AIDS, HIV, Tornadoes, War, Persecution, Rape, Abortion, Calamity, A democrat being elected president, Religious people blowing it, etc, etc, etc,

So the rapist can say that the rapes he committed were actually God's will.
It was good that planes were flown into the twin towers, that was Gods will.
You must accept anything bad that might happen to you, murder, rape, persecution, etc
What is the use of catching and punishing the criminal, his crimes are God's will.

This implies that we have no free will.

But nothing could ultimately be happening without God's will.

In my opinion this is a sickening philosophy. It is like the submissive woman trapped in an abusive relationship because she loves her abuser and hopes against all the evidence that it will get better soon.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by jaywill

Because with your first post I sensed you were fumbling around kind of defensively and also a bit unclearly, rather than tackling twhithead's pretty straight forward questions head on.

Even now, with "Might as well have" you seem to be hedging for some reason.

I was not speaking to twhitehead's OP primarily. I was responding to som ...[text shortened]... ER for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

could you explain in which millions of african children contracting malaria or aids is justifiable. if you juxtapose some of the horrors that seem to be allowed in gods world with the religious outrage over what would seem minor events such as abortion. if a woman killing a fetus is a crime, then the creating or the turning a blind eye to the creation of malaria or aids is a bigger crime and as ive asked before, why is the majority of the horrors that god allows directed at poor people?

Originally posted by Penguin
That strikes me as an amazingly fatalistic mindset and a denial of all responsibility for actions:

[b] "ALL THINGS" means "all things". AIDS, HIV, Tornadoes, War, Persecution, Rape, Abortion, Calamity, A democrat being elected president, Religious people blowing it, etc, etc, etc,

So the rapist can say that the rapes he committed ...[text shortened]... r abuser and hopes against all the evidence that it will get better soon.

--- Penguin.[/b]

This is jaywill writing from my dad's PC. Let's see. Yep, Pretty much all the standard retorts.

That strikes me as an amazingly fatalistic mindset and a denial of all responsibility for actions:

Well, it certainly doesn't strke me that way. The rest of the book of Paul Epistle to the Romans contains quite a hefty bit of discussion lazer focused on responsibility.

I suggest reading the whole book of 16 chapters. Just put a little check beside chatper 8 verse 29.

jw wrote:

"ALL THINGS" means "all things". AIDS, HIV, Tornadoes, War, Persecution, Rape, Abortion, Calamity, A democrat being elected president, Religious people blowing it, etc, etc, etc,

Being a little flip there on rather heavy topic. Sorry.

So the rapist can say that the rapes he committed were actually God's will.

No. I am saying more like:

#1 We should not go out LOOKING for bad stuff to happen.
That's stupid. Bad stuff will happen in the world.

#2 Even less we should go out to CAUSE bad stuff to happen.
That should be avoided. Fact of the matter is that we are sinners. We will cause some bad stuff to happen, because we are fallen sinners.

#3 To those who love God, we should trust God's sovereignty. We should trust God's providence. We should praise and thank God that He is able to turn ALL THINGS, even misfortunes, into a blessing. The key is that He is able to do that to those who "love God and are called according to His purpose."

May I suggest that you read the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis.

It was good that planes were flown into the twin towers, that was Gods will.

It is good that God is able to cause all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those called according to His purpose.

The worst thing in history that EVER occured was that man crucified the Son of God. Yet this God caused, for those who love God, eternal redemption. Actually the murder of Christ (with His resurrection) is the signal event of all time and eternity, that God turned around to be an eternal blessing of redemption and salvation.

You must accept anything bad that might happen to you, murder, rape, persecution, etc

Sigh. NO this is not the Islamic "Allah has willed it."

This is the hope and trust that the eternal God, the Divine Father, and uncreated everlasting Savior, is able by His eternal power and sovereignty, to cause all things to work together for good for His eternal purpose to which I am called.

Don't look for bad stuff to occur. Don't laugh at bad stuff. We still avoid the bad. WE still WEEP at the occurence of misfortune. We weep with those who weep.

But we trust God's promise.
Now I have to go. And I don't think anything further will help you if you are dead set on laying hold of a reason to dislike God.

Good luck. I'll cling to Romans 8:28,29

See ya'll latter.

Bye brother RJHinds. Keep growing in Christ.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
if god did invent aids, malaria, the flu, dysentery and all the rest does it mean he hates poor people more than the rich? as the poorer you are the more likely you will catch these things and are much more likely to die from them.
does he really hate africa? what did africa do to upset him? they seem to be getting both barrels from gods aids and malaria shotgun.

an observation mark twain made over a century ago.

Yes, the poor, the humble, the ignorant -- they are the ones that catch it. Take the "Sleeping Sickness," of Africa. This atrocious cruelty has for its victims a race of ignorant and unoffending blacks whom God placed in a remote wilderness, and bent his parental Eye upon them -- the one that never sleeps when there is a chance to breed sorrow for somebody. He arranged for these people before the Flood. The chosen agent was a fly, related to the tsetse; the tsetse is a fly which has command of the Zambezi country and stings cattle and horses to death, thus rendering that region uninhabitable by man. The tsetse's awful relative deposits a microbe which produces the Sleeping Sickness. Ham was full of these microbes, and when the voyage was over he discharged them in Africa and the havoc began, never to find amelioration until six thousand years should go by and science should pry into the mystery and hunt out the cause of the disease. The pious nations are now thanking God, and praising him for coming to the rescue of his poor blacks. The pulpit says the praise is due to him. He is surely a curious Being. He commits a fearful crime, continues that crime unbroken for six thousand years, and is then entitled to praise because he suggests to somebody else to modify its severities. He is called patient, and he certainly must be patient, or he would have sunk the pulpit in perdition ages ago for the ghastly compliments it pays him.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
could you explain in which millions of african children contracting malaria or aids is justifiable. if you juxtapose some of the horrors that seem to be allowed in gods world with the religious outrage over what would seem minor events such as abortion. if a woman killing a fetus is a crime, then the creating or the turning a blind eye to the creation o ...[text shortened]... as ive asked before, why is the majority of the horrors that god allows directed at poor people?

could you explain in which millions of african children contracting malaria or aids is justifiable

First name me one.

Originally posted by GSWILL
Well, it certainly doesn't strke me that way. The rest of the book of Paul Epistle to the [b]Romans contains quite a hefty bit of discussion lazer focused on responsibility.

I suggest reading the whole book of 16 chapters. Just put a little check beside chatper 8 verse 29.
[/b]

All of Chapter 8 is especially powerful.

I like how when you attempt to enlighten the non-believers that you often bring me back to favorite chapters also. Thanks.

Originally posted by jaywill

could you explain in which millions of african children contracting malaria or aids is justifiable

First name me one.

no.