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@fmf saidEither we have free will, or we don't.
I haven't seen anyone make that claim here.
I believe we have free will.
However, I believe that the action of the "God" character in the incident depicted in the mythological Garden of Eden folktale may perhaps be the most monstrously evil act in all of literature.
The talking point about "free will" appears to me, morally speaking, to be a rhetorical fig leaf.
So a God that you don't believe in (via your free will) is "monstrously evil". How convenient.
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@suzianne saidThe God figure depicted in the allegory did something monstrously evil when one bears in mind the premeditated consequences for 40 billion human beings in the 6,000 years since. The deity described aside, I DO believe this allegory exists, as do different interpretations of its moral content.
So a God that you don't believe in (via your free will) is "monstrously evil". How convenient.
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Do you think moonbus' ideas and beliefs are like animal excrement, sonship?
I don't think everyone deceived by a lie has sunk to the same level as one so unfortunate as yourself. I understand that "Misery loves company" might be incentive to hope one is not alone.
It is ok to give others a benefit of a doubt that they may not be as in the dark as some others have displayed.
Well, no one can accuse me of dodging the question. [/qyuote]
Yes. Kudos on not dodging the question.
You did tell me pretty much what I wished to understand what you believed.
These things can take time. Sometimes they can take a lifetime.
I recvall you saying something about stupidly. So its fair for me to see what you
have as an alternative.
[quote]
Your reply did not surprise me either.
I have read the Bible. It did not convince or convert me. Reading it again won’t have any different effect on me.
I'll be checking now and then to see what you have better.
Up to now, you admit . . . nothing and its none of my business.
Go in peace, sonship, I bear you no ill will. I just could not get myself to believe even 1% of the things you believe.
I don't think the percentage is important.
When God came into my life I still had reservations on many things in the library
of 66 Bible books.
I dodn't think you need to have no doubts or questions about hundreds of other things read there to agree that one is a stained with guilt of sin.
I mean talking snakes or not, you probably agree with the significant part saying like eveyone else, you've committed sins. And the guilt of those sins might be a problem for you if there is a ultimate accounting to God and there is judgment according to truth.
The parts on Christ's redemption, forgiveness, dying for you to be justified have a higher priority in getting the Bible's message.
But if you think you have no need of forgviness and if God turns out to be real you have enough arguments to get God to ignore your sins and make exception for you, see how that turns out.
Maybe you can argue Ie. "Yes God I knew what I did was wrong. But because of the unbelievable speaking snake part, or the Noah's ark part, I figured it was safe to dismiss everything in Your book. You DO agree me . . . God, right ? "
This is the "talking snake part saved me from my sins" defense.
This is "I didn't repent to seek Christ's rerdeeeming death for me because I found many things in God's word which gave me the comfort that my sins won't matter" hope.
Anyway, my journey was gradual. First I discovered that Jesus was available, real, and living.
@sonship saidAsserting that people are "in the dark" and they are "proud" to be in "such a state" is more a less an example of ipse dixit, sonship ~ meaning it isn't much of a discussion point.
@FMFAsserting that people are "in the dark" isn't much a discussion point, sonship.
I have noticed this, especially with those proud to be in such a state.
But you asked a rhetorical question which seemed to assume that.
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The father’s house has many mansions.
That's not really what it says.
The Bible has a strange effect on some people.
The less they know it, the more they think they do.
The word there in John 14:2 is better translated into the plural form of whatever the singular form of the same word is in verse 23.
We will come to him and make an ________ with him. " (v.23)
"In My Father's house are many ___________s. If it were not so I would have told you . . . " (v.2)
I prefer [b]"abodes"{/b] rather than "mansions".
There is a whole history as to why some versions thought to call that "mansions". But I would belabor that here, since you're dull of hearing. And you probably prefer to think you know all about what the Bible says 98% anyway.
He did not come with His Father to believers to make MANSIONS with them but a dwelling place or an abode. That is God living in man - man being a dwelling place for God to come into him.
This goes back to the reason why we were created in the first place. Which I asked you about, and you admitted other than an accident you were without a clue, and it's not anyone's business anyway.
@fmf saidWe have no choice but to believe in free will. 🙂
I haven't seen anyone make that claim here.
I believe we have free will.
However, I believe that the action of the "God" character in the incident depicted in the mythological Garden of Eden folktale may perhaps be the most monstrously evil act in all of literature.
The talking point about "free will" appears to me, morally speaking, to be a rhetorical fig leaf.
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@sonship saidMaybe we should start with 0.05% of what you believe in that actually makes sense to me, and leave off the rest (talking snakes and guilt and redemption).
@moonbus
[quote] Well, no one can accuse me of dodging the question. [/qyuote]
Yes. Kudos on not dodging the question.
You did tell me pretty much what I wished to understand what you believed.
These things can take time. Sometimes they can take a lifetime.
I recvall you saying something about stupidly. So its fair for me to see what you
have as an a ...[text shortened]... Anyway, my journey was gradual. First I discovered that Jesus was available, real, and living.
If you love God, yourself, your neighbor, and even your enemies and tormentors, then you will live sub specie aeternitatis, you will be living in a sense timelessly, everything will appear to you under the aspect of eternity; you will not fear death, and you will be in a position to forgive everyone and everything. This will produce a state of total acceptance and peace. This much I can understand and even agree with, theoretically.
That Jesus (or someone named something similar, Jeshua or whatever) attained this state in the ME about 2,000 years ago, in fact, I am willing to accept as possible, perhaps even probable.
However, I see two problems with this, practically.
1. Jesus presents us with a clear image of what it looks like to be in this state, but did not leave us any clear technique how to reach this state in practise.
Buddha did. The technique is tried and tested and it works.
2. The people who took up Jesus's example and teachings also did not pass on to us any clear path or technique for duplicating this state in others (as Buddha's followers did). What the followers of Jesus made of it was a dogma, loaded with all sorts of stuff (about talking snakes and guilt and redemption) which actually hinders people from attaining this state themselves. I do not know of any Christian who does actually love God, himself, and his neighbors, much less his enemies and tormentors. They pay this endless lip service, and they rant on and on and on about how imperfect and sinful everyone is and about how THEY have TRUTH (e.g., KellyJay). Pfui. Truth is only the map, not the territory. He who is familiar with the territory has no need of a map. Dump the dogma, I say, and start familiarizing yourselves with the territory (for Christ's sake, if not your own!).
@moonbus saidWow, that is cynical. Not even one, eh?
I do not know of any Christian who does actually love God, himself, and his neighbors, much less his enemies and tormentors. They pay this endless lip service, and they rant on and on and on about how imperfect and sinful everyone is and about how THEY have TRUTH (e.g., KellyJay). Pfui.
