1. Pale Blue Dot
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    04 Feb '08 12:19
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate. For instance:

    He is omniscient yet not completely (ie. not omniscient).

    He is omnipotent yet He can't set Himself an impossible problem. (This refutes the concept of omnipotence).

    All the universe came from God. There is evil in the world therefore it must have arisen from Him. (If Free Will can bring about evil then it is a less than perfect act to create it).

    He gets angry and exacts vengeance on the creatures He made (talk about sadism).

    He took six days to create the world/universe (why, if he exists outside of time?). He rested on the seventh day (why does God need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    Your thoughts please.
  2. Joined
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    04 Feb '08 12:35
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate. For instance:

    He is omniscient yet not completely (ie. not omniscient).

    He is omnipotent yet He can't set Himself an impossible problem. (This refutes the concept of ...[text shortened]... od need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    Your thoughts please.
  3. Cape Town
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    04 Feb '08 13:13
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate. For instance:

    He is omniscient yet not completely (ie. not omniscient).

    He is omnipotent yet He can't set Himself an impossible problem. (This refutes the concept of ...[text shortened]... od need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    Your thoughts please.
    Your definition of 'perfect' is imperfect. A Christians definition of perfect is God. Why do you declare any of the things you have mentioned 'imperfect'?
  4. Pale Blue Dot
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    04 Feb '08 13:51
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Your definition of 'perfect' is imperfect. A Christians definition of perfect is God. Why do you declare any of the things you have mentioned 'imperfect'?
    A Christians definition of perfect is God.

    So are you saying the question is circular? This doesn't make sense to me. If Perfect = God and God = Perfect then how can we use these words in different situations to convey different meanings. If I substituted God/He/Him with 'perfect' in my post above would it make sense to you?

    My definition of 'perfect' is to lack flaws. To be all-powerful, see-all, know-all, not be responsible for evil, not be emotional, not be bound by space or time, not get tired. Basically to be more than human(flawed). The Christian conception of God makes him sound like a child's idea of dad.
  5. Cape Town
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    04 Feb '08 14:18
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    So are you saying the question is circular? This doesn't make sense to me. If Perfect = God and God = Perfect then how can we use these words in different situations to convey different meanings. If I substituted God/He/Him with 'perfect' in my post above would it make sense to you?
    Many words in the English language are relative words and carry no absolute meaning. 'Perfect' is one of them. So yes, it is circular.

    My definition of 'perfect' is to lack flaws. To be all-powerful, see-all, know-all, not be responsible for evil, not be emotional, not be bound by space or time, not get tired. Basically to be more than human(flawed). The Christian conception of God makes him sound like a child's idea of dad.
    But why do you consider those perfect? Don't you realize that someone else might have a different idea of what they would want in a dad?
    An all-powerful, see-all, know-all, not be responsible for evil would be rather boring not to mention self-contradictory.
    What you must realize is that the Christian concept is exactly as you say - more than human - what they desire to attain - but as everyone has different desires, their gods are different. The main problem is that our desires contradict each other and contradict reality. Its like the age old problem of wishing for all the money in the world. If you had it, it would be worthless.
    If God could truly not be responsible for evil then either he is not as all-powerful, know-all as he is made out to be, or evil does not exist - something we know to be false.
  6. Pale Blue Dot
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    04 Feb '08 14:372 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Many words in the English language are relative words and carry no absolute meaning. 'Perfect' is one of them. So yes, it is circular.

    [b]My definition of 'perfect' is to lack flaws. To be all-powerful, see-all, know-all, not be responsible for evil, not be emotional, not be bound by space or time, not get tired. Basically to be more than human(flawed) know-all as he is made out to be, or evil does not exist - something we know to be false.
    Many words in the English language are relative words and carry no absolute meaning. 'Perfect' is one of them. So yes, it is circular.

    Just because they're related doesn't make them identical. One cannot interchange these two words and still convey the same meaning therefore they are conceptually different.

    An all-powerful, see-all, know-all, not be responsible for evil would be rather boring not to mention self-contradictory.

    I agree this is self-contradictory (see my first post). I didn't know excitement was a criterion for truth.

    but as everyone has different desires, their gods are different.

    Are you saying there are as many gods as there are Christians in the world?

    Edit: Swine bold
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Feb '08 17:541 edit
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    [b]Many words in the English language are relative words and carry no absolute meaning. 'Perfect' is one of them. So yes, it is circular.

    Just because they're related doesn't make them identical. One cannot interchange these two words and still convey the same meaning therefore they are conceptually different.

    An all-powerful, see-all, kn you saying there are as many gods as there are Christians in the world?

    Edit: Swine bold
    [/b]Each person carries their own views of what God is like so there are
    many different gods in that sense; however, God is what God is and
    that does not depend upon human opinion.

    An All knowing God would know all that can be known, as God that
    can do all things would be a God that can do eveything that can be
    done. That is not the same thing as saying God can draw a square
    circle, or create a rock so heavy He could not life it.

    God creating the perfrect universe does not mean that during the
    process of creating it, that some things we think of as sub par are
    not out there during the process. Evil getting a shot to do whatever
    it can simply displays it for what it is, and those that go along with
    it will fell God's wrath, as those that seek God's mercy will feel God's
    mercy. Your view of what perfect is or how things should have been
    done are lacking due to the limited knowledge you have as that is
    true with me as well.
    Kelly
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Feb '08 17:567 edits
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    [b]Many words in the English language are relative words and carry no absolute meaning. 'Perfect' is one of them. So yes, it is circular.

    Just because they're related doesn't make them identical. One cannot interchange these two words and still convey the same meaning therefore they are conceptually different.

    An all-powerful, see-all, kn you saying there are as many gods as there are Christians in the world?

    Edit: Swine bold
    [/b]FYI incase you didn't know.
    [ / b ] at the start of your post will get rid of all the bold if you see that
    your post is completely bolded out once you submit it. Except you
    have to join the brackets, slash, and b together.
    Kelly
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    04 Feb '08 19:26
    ===================================

    He rested on the seventh day (why does God need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    ========================================


    Rest on the seventh day does not signify relief from fatigue. It signifies satisfaction and contentment. God obtains somthing which causes Him satisfaction and contentment.

    What is it that God has obtained which cause Him to rest on the seventh day? All creation, filled with life, with man at the pinnacle of all lives, created in the image of God and invested with the deputy authority of God to have dominion over God's creation.

    This situation of a man in God's image having dominion over the works of God's creation is what allows Him rest in contentment and in satisfaction. It is an enjoyment to God to have man in His image with His likeness ruling over His creation expressing His glory and excercising His dominion.

    This is the meaning of the divine rest. It is not that God needs to catch His breath. It is that God is satisfied and content obtaining something for His heart's desire.
  10. Pale Blue Dot
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    04 Feb '08 19:54
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    FYI incase you didn't know.
    [ / b ] at the start of your post will get rid of all the bold if you see that
    your post is completely bolded out once you submit it. Except you
    have to join the brackets, slash, and b together.
    Kelly[/b]
    Thanks!
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    04 Feb '08 20:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    Interesting.
  12. Joined
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    04 Feb '08 20:27
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate. For instance:

    He is omniscient yet not completely (ie. not omniscient).

    He is omnipotent yet He can't set Himself an impossible problem. (This refutes the concept of ...[text shortened]... od need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    Your thoughts please.
    I agree with the sadism point.
  13. Territories Unknown
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    04 Feb '08 20:331 edit
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate. For instance:

    He is omniscient yet not completely (ie. not omniscient).

    He is omnipotent yet He can't set Himself an impossible problem. (This refutes the concept of ...[text shortened]... od need to rest?). If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?

    Your thoughts please.
    I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.
    Why do you want to know from the theists? Isn't the Bible clear enough regarding the topic, or do you think further revelation is available via the opinion of theists?

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rate.
    There is a way that seems right to a man,
    but in the end it leads to death.


    All the universe came from God.
    So far, so good...

    There is evil in the world therefore it must have arisen from Him.
    Oops! Blew it already. And to think you were only two steps into your theory, too!

    (If Free Will can bring about evil then it is a less than perfect act to create it).
    Your ignorance of theology is appalling. Unless you are from a remote village which has been cut-off from society at large for a few generations, I can't imagine a plausible excuse for such wanton empty-headedness.

    He gets angry and exacts vengeance on the creatures He made (talk about sadism).
    God doesn't "get" anything. Nor, from the sound of it, do you--- although with a completely different meaning.

    He took six days to create the world/universe (why, if he exists outside of time?).
    Not quite. The present visible creation you see around you was re-created in six days.

    Time exists for the convenience of man.

    He rested on the seventh day (why does God need to rest?).
    You've been corrected on this point already, so I won't belabor the issue.

    If this is not literal then what in the Bible is?
    Do you want the Reader's Digest version, or were you looking for a complete dissertation?

    Your thoughts please.
    I can do one better than that. Here's just one thought: go do some study on theology from the Enlightenment period forward and then decide whether a chess web site is really the best place to obtain answers to those pesky questions currently upsetting your psyche.
  14. Pale Blue Dot
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    04 Feb '08 21:131 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]I would like to know from the theists out there whether God (the Judaeo-Christian one) is perfect.
    Why do you want to know from the theists? Isn't the Bible clear enough regarding the topic, or do you think further revelation is available via the opinion of theists?

    It seems to me that He isn't... well not according to the theists at any rat best place to obtain answers to those pesky questions currently upsetting your psyche.
    [/b]If ad hominem arguments constitute the extent of your acumen, amen. If you're prepared to address the points with logic then that's also fine.
  15. Joined
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    04 Feb '08 21:492 edits
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    If ad hominem arguments constitute the extent of your acumen, amen. If you're prepared to address the points with logic then that's also fine.[/b]
    Freaky is right about getting more substantial treatment in books. He's right not only on this subject but on others, such as Evolution or even Athesm.

    Sometimes if you're really interested its time to get a book which can more substantially develop an indepth look into the matter.

    Dialogue like this is fun. But it has its limitations.

    Don't knock sitting down and taking in a book on theology. Here's a few that helped me:

    Notes on the Pentateuch by C.H. Machintosh

    Earth's Earliest Ages by G.H. Pember

    The Mystery of Creation by Watchman Nee

    The Invisible War by Donald Barnhouse
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