Originally posted by telerion
[b]You're asking questions to see if the answers are sensible. Fair enough, but what sensible premise are you comparing the answers to?
Logic, as best as I can employ it, although yousrr (sp) has given me something to mull over fo ...[text shortened]... e the courage to always question your absolutes.
Sincerely.
[/b]
Thanks, Tel, for taking so much time to answer my comments.
God is real, God created everything that is real, and God did not create himself. I don't think it's semantics.
Maybe semantics isn't the right word. How about pedantic? If this isn't word games, then it's just the silly 'rock question' packaged differently. Trying to put God into a logical impossibility.
As far as wasting time, I encourage you to allow me to choose how to allocate my leisure time. When I consider what I am doing with my life, I think that I am making a pretty good go of it. I'm working hard, stretching my mind, hopefully doing my part to contribute back to knowledge, and building a happy family.
Zounds like a great life pal! But I must say that if I saw you dripping a few drops of blood everywhere you went, I'd probably caution you to 'stop wasting your blood'. Only 'cause I care. And, I might add, it's the believing the wrong thing that is the real waste of time. That effects a person, not just when they're talking or writing about it, but at every other moment as well. Life is too short... for having a mistaken worldview.
Anyway, who said anything about dying for it? I'm not facing a cross or a stoning or something.
No, you're not, of course. My point was that some of the Christian doctrines we profess are 'worth dieing for'. That is to say that certain beliefs must be held firm, or the whole thing collapses. Under persecution, some Christians are ordered to deny Christ or die. They are supposed to renounce His birth, death and resurrection; their salvation in Christ, as it were. This cannot be done. We would rather die. So, in comparison to that scenario, I was saying that your discussion about God being real or not, if He created all things real etc., pales drastically in importance. I'd hope that we can skip 'majoring on the minors', and deal with the real meat issues.
All I can say, having come out of that belief, is that I was wrong.
Maybe (what am I saying?!). Maybe not (that's better Mike!)! Your openness to being wrong is commendable Tel, so of course you will then admit that you may have been wrong the second time (my opinion).
I've been there. I can't say I was ever an atheist, but I left the church of my first 19 years (including four years of seminary) after opening my eyes and looking closely at what I was being taught. And I remember, in the face of my wonderful Mother's admonitions to me, thinking this arrogant thought: 'I don't need to be born again. I was born right the first time!' Well, that might sound like a reasonable claim to many, but with present hindsight, it was an incredible blindness. I was wrong. I was not born right the first time, and if you (all) can avoid feeling offended and not get defensive for just a moment; neither were you.
Next, Telerion, you compared your deconversion to someone escaping from a cult. I understand that perspective and it makes a lot of sense. The point of all these spiritual discussions is just that: to identify the truth and separate it from the fiction. Please believe that my most important goal is just that. I am not interested in defending my faith or my church, or even my own family from rightful grievances. Jesus said (John 8:32) Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. That's what I want for all of us. You suggest that I consider whether or not I'm one of the deceived cult members. Good advice. I have made that my practice for a long time. The Bible advises the same thing
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realise that Christ Jesus is in you— unless, of course, you fail the test?
1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
About cults. How does the Christian worldview explain the existence of cults? I think that the devil hates God and all He cares about (people) so much that he works hard to interfere with their relationship. One of his best tricks is to encourage counterfeits. Groups or ideas that seem similar enough to the real thing that they are appealing to our spiritual frameworks, but also appeal to our desire and temptation to rebel, or avoid, direct obedience to God. The prevalence of so many other religions and oddball cults fit satan's plan to sew confusion amongst us very well.
Thanks Telerion, for the honest and humble post. I appreciate your kind words as well. Only good can come from such an open discussion.
Is God the Creator of reality?
27 May '05 03:58
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