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Originally posted by telerionTelerion: "If I go to heaven (many have assured me that this event will occur with zero probability), I do not think I could be happy knowing that some of my loved ones are in hell. In fact, I could not be truly happy, if I knew one soul was suffering in torment forever. Thus heaven could not be perfect for me unless no single person was suffering in hell."
If I go to heaven (many have assured me that this event will occur with zero probability), I do not think I could be happy knowing that some of my loved ones are in hell. In fact, I could not be truly happy, if I knew one soul was sufferi ...[text shortened]... not a utopia; it's a tragedy.
So is heaven so great after all?
That's why there are Christian theologians who assume there is nobody and there will never ever be somebody in hell. That would be in contradiction with God's very Nature. In the Scriptures however God explicitely warns us for the existing possibility of going to hell.
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Originally posted by blindfaith101Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
LUKE 16:19-32
REVELATIONS 7: 16,17
REVELATIONS 21:1-8
nothing there about memory
Revelations 7: 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
nothing there either
Revelations 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Surprise surprise, nothing there either
Any chance you could answer the question this time?
Originally posted by StarrmanThanks ... I was about to look them up. 😀
Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass ...[text shortened]... prise surprise, nothing there either
Any chance you could answer the question this time?[/b]
Originally posted by StarrmanMaybe this is what blindfaith was driving at.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Originally posted by ivanhoeI would be interested in knowing who these theologians are, if you
That's why there are Christian theologians who assume there is nobody and there will never ever be somebody in hell. That would be in contradiction with God's very Nature. In the Scriptures however God explicitely warns us for the existing possibility of going to hell.
know offhand.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by Nemesio..... on one condition ...... that you don't believe a word they're saying ...... Among others, the Frenchman Jacques Ellul and Hans Küng from Switzerland.
I would be interested in knowing who these theologians are, if you
know offhand.
Nemesio
this will be a good (oh well 🙄 ) start:
It's called the doctrine of Universalism:
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/miscellaneous/ellul.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/christianunie.htm
Originally posted by ivanhoeOf course I know Hans Kueng, but only his documents on the history
..... on one condition ...... that you don't believe a word they're saying ...... Among others, the Frenchman Jacques Ellul and Hans Küng from Switzerland.
this will be a good (oh well 🙄 ) start:
It's called the doctrine of Universalism:
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/miscellaneous/ellul.htm
http://www.carm.org/uni/christianunie.htm
of the Church and his tacit opposition to the Papacy as it exists today.
I don't know Ellul, so it will be a good experience all around.
I am guessing that you don't embrace their theological conjectures,
then...
In any event, thank you very much for the links and citations.
Nemesio
Originally posted by StarrmanThe rich man saw Lazarus and called to Father Abrahm for relief. If he remembered Lazerus he rember how he had lived. How He had plenty to drink while Lazarus wass thirsty. Now he was thirsty. So his memory was in tact if he could remember Lazarus, his brothers, and father Abraham.
Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass ...[text shortened]... prise surprise, nothing there either
Any chance you could answer the question this time?[/b]
If GOD has said that there will be no more tears, no hunger,no thirst and comfort them. Then there is no need for them to remembe,r all that they have gone through in this life
GOD has promised that the time will come, when HE will not remember our sins. He made this promise to those that are gettting and stay saved. If GOD is not remember the wrong that we have done. It stands to reason that we will not either.
THE WORD OF GOD clearly answers you question. It is up to you to accept the answer.
Originally posted by StarrmanYes, I agree. I was just pointing out what I think blindfaith was alluding to in the passages he presented.
I think that 'former things' is most likely to refer to the crying and pain etc not being present in heaven than for one's memories to be eradicated.
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Originally posted by blindfaith101
If GOD has said that there will be no more tears, no hunger,no thirst and comfort them. Then there is no need for them to remembe,r all that they have gone through in this life
This is a huge jump in reason. How could you know that this is what god meant? Did he tell you this? Just because there is no pain in heaven, does not mean there is no memory of pain.
GOD has promised that the time will come, when HE will not remember our sins.
Huh? There will be a time when god forgets? How can that happen if he is god? Surely god doesn't forget anything.
He made this promise to those that are gettting and stay saved. If GOD is not remember the wrong that we have done. It stands to reason that we will not either.
Where did he make this promise? And even if he did, just because god chooses to forget something, does not mean we have to, we do afterall have free will. Surely that is the free will to choose whether to forget something or not?
THE WORD OF GOD clearly answers you question. It is up to you to accept the answer.
The word of god is not here, just the word of you and you clearly do not answer the question at all.
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Originally posted by blindfaith101It's pretty clear that wherever you gained your religious beliefs from it certainly wasn't from reading the Gospels and studying its message. There is nothining in the rich man-Lazarus story remotely suggesting that the saved have their earthly memory wiped at all, although obviously the damned don't. Whether you feel there'd be a "need for them to remember" is irrelevant; you're not God although you often act like you are. Unless you can point to some SPECIFIC passage in Scripture that says all your earthly memories are wiped clean, I will have to assume you got such an idea not from Scripture but from some half-assed interpretation of it by a Fundamentalist because I have NEVER heard such an assertion before.
The rich man saw Lazarus and called to Father Abrahm for relief. If he remembered Lazerus he rember how he had lived. How He had plenty to drink while Lazarus wass thirsty. Now he was thirsty. So his memory was in tact if he could r ...[text shortened]... learly answers you question. It is up to you to accept the answer.