1. Standard membertelerion
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    18 Mar '05 07:23
    If I go to heaven (many have assured me that this event will occur with zero probability), I do not think I could be happy knowing that some of my loved ones are in hell. In fact, I could not be truly happy, if I knew one soul was suffering in torment forever. Thus heaven could not be perfect for me unless no single person was suffering in hell.

    Now some have assured me (usually the same people as before) that if I did go to heaven, God would wipe away my memory of these people so that I wouldn't worry about those poor bastards in eternal agony. The problem with this is that I don't want to have my memory erased. It would make me happy like a stroke would make me happy. I would lose the memories of every condemned person that was dear to me. This is not a utopia; it's a tragedy.

    So is heaven so great after all?
  2. Standard memberDarfius
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    18 Mar '05 07:46
    Originally posted by telerion
    If I go to heaven (many have assured me that this event will occur with zero probability), I do not think I could be happy knowing that some of my loved ones are in hell. In fact, I could not be truly happy, if I knew one soul was suffering in torment forever. Thus heaven could not be perfect for me unless no single person was suffering in hell.

    Now so ...[text shortened]... that was dear to me. This is not a utopia; it's a tragedy.

    So is heaven so great after all?
    This just sounds like another case of you assuming you know all the answers.

    How do you know you wouldn't want your memory wiped? Have you tried it before?

    Are you saying you WANT to remember what pain feels like? Suffering? Evil? Terror?

  3. Standard memberjimmyb270
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    18 Mar '05 08:41
    Originally posted by Darfius
    This just sounds like another case of you assuming you know all the answers.

    How do you know you wouldn't want your memory wiped? Have you tried it before?

    Are you saying you WANT to remember what pain feels like? Suffering? Evil? Terror?

    How can you experience joy if you have no memory of pain or suffering to compare it too?
  4. Copenhagen
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    18 Mar '05 08:48
    Originally posted by Darfius
    This just sounds like another case of you assuming you know all the answers.

    How do you know you wouldn't want your memory wiped? Have you tried it before?

    Are you saying you WANT to remember what pain feels like? Suffering? Evil? Terror?

    Your understanding of heaven sounds a lot like a lobotomy.
  5. Standard memberMaustrauser
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    18 Mar '05 10:47
    Is there a Bible reference that says that one's memory is wiped on entering the Pearly Gates?
  6. England
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    18 Mar '05 11:17
    Originally posted by Maustrauser
    Is there a Bible reference that says that one's memory is wiped on entering the Pearly Gates?
    yes there is in the apocrypha (if ive spelt it wrong im sorry). its in ezra, in one of his conversations thro the archangel. All our memory will be wiped clean and god will wipe clean his about us. this is because we would bring sin into heaven by a thought of something that our present life we have done. hope that helps.
  7. Standard memberMaustrauser
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    18 Mar '05 11:26
    Thanks Stoker. I have just read all of Ezra and there is no reference. Does anyone else have a suggestion?
  8. London
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    18 Mar '05 11:45
    Originally posted by telerion
    If I go to heaven (many have assured me that this event will occur with zero probability), I do not think I could be happy knowing that some of my loved ones are in hell. In fact, I could not be truly happy, if I knew one soul was suffering in torment forever. Thus heaven could not be perfect for me unless no single person was suffering in hell.

    Now so ...[text shortened]... that was dear to me. This is not a utopia; it's a tragedy.

    So is heaven so great after all?
    (1 Cor 13:12) "At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known."

    If you do indeed go to heaven and (some of) your loved ones indeed go to hell, you will know then exactly why that happened. As has been mentioned several times in the other salvation threads, Hell is something that people consign themselves to through some deliberate, grave, voluntary action that separates them from God. Further, they must remain unrepentant until the very end of their lives.

    Do you find yourself unhappy that murderers and rapists are sent to jail, sometimes to the end of their natural lives (and sometimes to a death sentence), for their crimes? It's only justice.
  9. Standard memberAlcra
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    18 Mar '05 11:57
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    (1 Cor 13:12) "At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known."

    If you do indeed go to heaven and (some of) your loved ones indeed go to hell, you will know then exactly why that happened. As has been mentioned several times in the other salvation th ...[text shortened]... f their natural lives (and sometimes to a death sentence), for their crimes? It's only justice.
    Your last sentence is completely irrelevant.
    Based on the religious argument above, "our minds are wiped clean so as not to bring sin into heaven"

    If this is the case, why not wipe clean the minds of sinners and allow them into heaven?

    Furthermore, given the choice of sending someone to prison for life, or curing them of their "evil", I would choose the latter, every time.

  10. London
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    18 Mar '05 12:011 edit
    Originally posted by Alcra
    Your last sentence is completely irrelevant.
    Based on the religious argument above, "our minds are wiped clean so as not to bring sin into heaven"

    If this is the case, why not wipe clean the minds of sinners and allow them into heaven? ...[text shortened]... them of their "evil", I would choose the latter, every time.

    1. I am NOT Darfius.
    2. I don't know where he got his "memory wipe" theory from.

    EDIT: And, no, the last sentence is not irrelevant. telerion claims he will never be happy as long as one soul goes to Hell. I am asking him if he finds himself bothered by existing systems of justice where criminals are incarcerated. Does he agonise himself about their pain when they're only suffering just punishment for their crimes?
  11. Standard memberAlcra
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    18 Mar '05 12:091 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    1. I am NOT Darfius.
    2. I don't know where he got his "memory wipe" theory from.

    EDIT: And, no, the last sentence is not irrelevant. telerion claims he will never be happy as long as one soul goes to Hell. I am asking him if h ...[text shortened]... ain when they're only suffering just punishment for their crimes?
    I did not claim you were Darfius (my words were "THE religious" not "YOUR religious" )

    Secondly, I said that I did not think prison was a "just" punishment. It is however, the only thing humanity has at this point. If we could "cure" criminals, I would prefer that, every time.

    Why god feels it necessary to punish, rather than cure is a mystery - but then of course, he is the vengeful, selfish, immodest god of the bible, so that would be right up his alley.
  12. London
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    18 Mar '05 12:56
    Originally posted by Alcra
    I did not claim you were Darfius (my words were "THE religious" not "YOUR religious" )

    Secondly, I said that I did not think prison was a "just" punishment. It is however, the only thing humanity has at this point. If we could "cure" criminals, I would prefer that, every time.
    Alright - let's start with the concept of justice. What do you think it is? You say that if we could "cure" criminals, you would prefer that to punishment.

    Here, cure can have two meanings:

    1. Heal, make healthy again

    Since a criminal has hurt someone in the process of his crime, what does it mean to "heal" the criminal? The most obvious sense would be to make it so that he does not hurt people again. Now, plenty of people are convicted of one-time offences (many pre-meditated murders, for instance; or crimes of passion). In this sense, because they are unlikely ever to repeat their crime, they are "cured" already! It follows, then, from your position that such people should be released immediately and not incarcerated.

    2. Undo, return to its original state

    Certainly many crimes cannot be undone (murder, rape etc.). However, many crimes can be undone (in a sense). E.g. A burglar can be forced to return the stolen goods. From your position, again, such people should not be incarcerated.
  13. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    18 Mar '05 13:07
    Originally posted by Darfius
    This just sounds like another case of you assuming you know all the answers.

    How do you know you wouldn't want your memory wiped? Have you tried it before?

    Are you saying you WANT to remember what pain feels like? Suffering? Evil? Terror?

    This statement is so hypocritical I almost fell out of my chair. You do nothing but assume that you have the answers. How can you be so cocksure about your "factual" truth one second and then turn around and start spouting about how ignorant we are?

    Anyway, without memory of pain was have nothing on which to gauge pleasure. Without shivering in the cold there would be no way to understand warmth.

    ... --- ...
  14. Standard memberAlcra
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    18 Mar '05 13:16
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Alright - let's start with the concept of justice. What do you think it is? You say that if we could "cure" criminals, you would prefer that to punishment.

    Here, cure can have two meanings:

    1. Heal, make healthy again

    Since a criminal has hurt someone in the process of his crime, what does it mean to "heal" the criminal? The most obvious ...[text shortened]... d to return the stolen goods. From your position, again, such people should not be incarcerated.
    You seem to disagree with my position, yet, it is EXACTLY what christianity teaches. If someone commits a crime, and "repents" to Jesus, he is no longer liable for the crime's punishment.

    Are you not being hypocritical here?

  15. London
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    18 Mar '05 13:382 edits
    Originally posted by Alcra
    You seem to disagree with my position, yet, it is EXACTLY what christianity teaches. If someone commits a crime, and "repents" to Jesus, he is no longer liable for the crime's punishment.

    Are you not being hypocritical here?

    I don't yet know fully what your position is. Perhaps if you commented on my previous post, I would have a better idea and then I can agree or disagree.

    EDIT: In a Christian context, punishment for crime is separation from God; i.e. Hell. The reason why a person can escape this punishment on repenting is because Christ has already taken on himself the punishment through his death. It's like me offering you money as a gift to clear up your credit card bills - the debt has not gone unpaid. Because you're incapable of doing it, I have done it for you.

    If indeed your position is one of the two I've listed in my previous post then, no, I'm not being hypocritical. The crime has not gone unpunished - an innocent man has voluntarily taken up the punishment on behalf of the criminal.
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