Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut not according to you, a member of the Christian religion. You said quite clearly that the jehovahs witnesses are a religion on their own. I guess you may contest the right to us the 'Christian' name, but you did not attempt to use it yourself in your earlier post.
firstly i am a Christian for I follow the teaching of the Christ,
... secondly the post is specifically made with regard tio Islam, and whether or not its a force for peace.
I am aware of that.
If you wish to discuss Christianity then start another thread.
I wish to discuss whether it is meaningful to discuss whether a religion as a whole can be given descriptions such as 'a religion of peace'.
I propose that regardless of what other religious movements are doing, regardless of what individual Muslims may appear to be and regardless of political rhetoric, it can be proven that Islam is a force not for peace but of war and suppression.
Well then prove it. So far, you haven't done much in that line.
The example was given to illustrate that a judiciary and a government agency, under the influence of Islamists may indeed, perpetrate atrocities against innocents on the flimsiest basis while maintaining that it is proper and correct to do so.
But what conclusion can one draw about the religion as a whole from that example. Why cant the same conclusion be made about Christianity given the equivalent examples from that religion?
Such an environment of fear ensuing from a lack of transparency (you cannot speak against the religion)
As already pointed out, Christians have had death penalties for blasphemy. My own ancestors were quakers and they were jailed for refusing to go to Church. They also refused to swear on the Bible and address the Judge with a fanciful title.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat I am saying is that Christ offered us a much better covenant. Its a thing called grace rather than judgement.
I am finding it hard to follow you here. Are you saying you do not believe that God commanded people to kill other people? Is the Old Testament incorrect?
Originally posted by twhiteheadI was thinking of countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. Essentially, I was thinking of countries where Islamofascism is the most popular.
I am not convinced. The vast majority of religious Christians also live in poor parts of the world. Here in South Africa, the Muslims are not the poorest (or least educated) of the population. Where are these 'largely uneducated' masses? Are we talking about Saudi Arabia? Indonesia? Please explain where you get your statistics from.
Originally posted by whodeyI still don't follow. What does grace or judgement have to do with your original statement:
What I am saying is that Christ offered us a much better covenant. Its a thing called grace rather than judgement.
Of course, it does not help matters when Mohammad gives his followers liscence to kill in the name of God for various reasons. This is an aspect that Christians simply cannot relate to.
Do you, or do you not, as a Christian, accept that God gave certain people in the O.T. licence to kill in the name of God?
Originally posted by whodeyWell then your statement should have specified. If I had said:
I was thinking of countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. Essentially, I was thinking of countries where Islamofascism is the most popular.
The Christian world is largely African, homophobic and poverty stricken, would you agree? Could I then clarify by saying I was thinking of countries like Malawi and Uganda?
Remember that you said:
The Islam world is largely ignorant and uneducated ....
2 edits
... secondly the post is specifically made with regard tio Islam, and whether or hurch. They also refused to swear on the Bible and address the Judge with a fanciful title.if you understand that the post is not about Christianity then why do you keep alluding to it? Do you normally introduce text that has practically no relevance to a topic and then try to justify its inclusion? No, well lets not start here.
As for proving that Islam is a force for peace, we could of course begin by looking at the nations whose main religion is of course Islam and try to form an understanding of whether the Islamification of that particular state has brought peace to the state and to its neighbouring states, lets start with Somalia, a predominately Islamic country, or what about, Algeria? or lets say, Iran? Saudi Arabia? Iraq? Pakistan? Afghanistan?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFor someone who has claimed elsewhere to have 'high moral standards' you can be remarkably dishonest when it comes to debating. You know perfectly well why I introduced text about Christianity and you know perfectly well why you are uncomfortable about dealing with it.
if you understand that the post is not about Christianity then why do you keep alluding to it? Do you normally introduce text that has practically no relevance to a topic and then try to justify its inclusion? No, well lets not start here.
As for proving that Islam is a force for peace, we could of course begin by looking at the nations whose main religion is of course Islam and try to form an understanding of whether the Islamification of that particular state has brought peace to the state and to its neighbouring states, lets start with Somalia, a predominately Islamic country, or what about, Algeria? or lets say, Iran? Saudi Arabia? Iraq? Pakistan? Afghanistan?
Yes you could start by looking at such nations. But don't stop there. What conclusions are you going to draw from those examples and why? So far, not one poster has given any good argument as to why they think Islam can as a whole be labeled non-peaceful. So far all we have is people giving examples of violence by Muslims or Islamic states. Those examples on their own, do not constitute an argument and are worthless without further argument to suggest why other Muslims or Islamic states should be painted with the same brush.
If you cant handle my 'bad Christian' examples, then lets try going Scottish. Blasphemy used to carry the death penalty in Scotland. Is Scottish a culture of peace?
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Originally posted by twhiteheadi am not uncomfortable, it has practically no relevance, you dont like that i pointed it out and have become, well, defensive. sigh, whats new. Please note, this topic is not about me, nor of Christianity, but Islam, one indeed wonders why this should be so hard to understand.
For someone who has claimed elsewhere to have 'high moral standards' you can be remarkably dishonest when it comes to debating. You know perfectly well why I introduced text about Christianity and you know perfectly well why you are uncomfortable about dealing with it.
As for proving that Islam is a force for peace, we could of course begin by looki ish. Blasphemy used to carry the death penalty in Scotland. Is Scottish a culture of peace?
we have proffered no arguments firstly because we must clear the way of any irrelevant details, allusions to personalities, personal grievances, etc etc once the path is cleared, we may progress from there.
Who has stated anything about looking at aspects in isolation, only you as far as i can tell, indeed, does not the doctor look upon the patient examining various organs in order to determine what the nature of the illness may be, continuing on from your 'logic', i use the term loosely, he might as well not bother at all, or examine another patient, making a diagnosis on the first from data gathered from the second.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiewe have proffered no arguments firstly because we must clear the way of any irrelevant details, allusions to personalities, personal grievances, etc etc once the path is cleared, we may progress from there.
i am not uncomfortable, it has practically no relevance, you dont like that i pointed it out and have become, well, defensive. sigh, whats new. Please note, this topic is not about me, nor of Christianity, but Islam, one indeed wonders why this should be so hard to understand.
we have proffered no arguments firstly because we must clear the wa ...[text shortened]... r examine another patient, making a diagnosis on the first from data gathered from the second.
The thread is doomed then.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWho has stated anything about looking at aspects in isolation, only you as far as i can tell
i am not uncomfortable, it has practically no relevance, you dont like that i pointed it out and have become, well, defensive. sigh, whats new. Please note, this topic is not about me, nor of Christianity, but Islam, one indeed wonders why this should be so hard to understand.
we have proffered no arguments firstly because we must clear the wa ...[text shortened]... r examine another patient, making a diagnosis on the first from data gathered from the second.
Sometimes i wonder how long your memory span is, go back and read your first post.
Originally posted by Proper KnobLol, i know, another one bites the dust!
[b]we have proffered no arguments firstly because we must clear the way of any irrelevant details, allusions to personalities, personal grievances, etc etc once the path is cleared, we may progress from there.
The thread is doomed then.[/b]
-Removed-I would ask the same about christianity: Is Christianity a religion of peace?
I would say no, regarding the crusaders, the terrorism of IRA, the ongoing wars by the christian USA on several islamic nations, and so on.
I would ask the same about judaism: Is Judaism a religion of peace?
I would say no, regarding what's happening, right now, in Palestine. The jewish Israel is the most militarized region on the Earth. That wouldn't be if Israel was a state of peace.
There are terrorism in India, and Sri Lanka. I don't know much enough to argue the hindu violence activities though, so I don't go further on this particular line.
The ultimate question - is it religion per se that is not peaceful, and peace loving? Wothout religion on our world, a world of reason and diplmacy, wouldn't the Earth be a more peaceful place to live?
I would say yes.
Originally posted by twhiteheadChrist said that his followers should love those who hate them and do good to them who depitefully use them. In fact, when they came to take Christ to the cross Peter raised a sword to defend him but Christ rebuked him and even healed the man whom he tried to kill.
I still don't follow. What does grace or judgement have to do with your original statement:
[b] Of course, it does not help matters when Mohammad gives his followers liscence to kill in the name of God for various reasons. This is an aspect that Christians simply cannot relate to.
Do you, or do you not, as a Christian, accept that God gave certain people in the O.T. licence to kill in the name of God?[/b]
Conversely, you have a man like Mohammad who conquered with the sword and told his followers to kill under certain circumstances. Of course, these circumstances are always open to debate are they not? It then only comes down to your "interpretations" in regards to the right time to kill the infidel.
Originally posted by twhiteheadLets just say that I think it to be essential that people are educated enough to read and understand for themselves. If not, they are subject to those who will just love to do it for them. Its like not knowing the laws of the land because you can't read. People will simply take advantage of you for their own benefit.
Well then your statement should have specified. If I had said:
The Christian world is largely African, homophobic and poverty stricken, would you agree? Could I then clarify by saying I was thinking of countries like Malawi and Uganda?
Remember that you said:
[b]The Islam world is largely ignorant and uneducated ....[/b]