1. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 10:022 edits
    This was a debate between a guy named Jay and various muslims on
    youtube (have no idea if they're still at it), but I found his argument
    slightly humorous. I would post this in debate, because that's what I'm
    looking for here, but there's been enough of this spiritual mumbo jumbo
    in there of late, so I take it here.

    Now, muslims claim that Jesus was merely a prophet and a man. Not
    God. To be God and have to go to the toilet is a ridiculous thought, they
    apparently say.

    What Jay is saying (if you care not to, or cannot view the video) is that
    even though Jesus came to earth as a man, lived as a man, with all the
    flaws of a regular man, he was indeed God. But while in the form of a
    man, he had to pray to God because he had left his divine powers; his
    omnipotence behind to become a man for a human lifetime so that he
    could pass on the word of God to humanity. Right? I think it boils down
    to that.






    ??




    Am I the only one having a problem with this? If he's God, then surely
    he could also have stepped down onto earth looking like a man
    but with all the powers of God? Wouldn't that be a bit more
    convincing? Look! There's God. We know this because he can pull some
    weird shit on us and if we try to strike him down he still stands
    without a scratch.

    He speaks. Thus, it's the word of God. Who needs a bible, when God is
    right there speaking to us directly?

    So, he kinda shot himself in the foot there, didn't he? 😕

    ---

    Oh, and it wouldn't hurt if I post the actual youtube link, right? 😵

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=zuFxmZOiOzE&feature=user
  2. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 12:584 edits
    Originally posted by Jigtie
    This was a debate between a guy named Jay and various muslims on
    youtube (have no idea if they're still at it), but I found his argument
    slightly humorous. I would post this in debate, because that's what I'm
    looking for here, but there's been enough of this spiritual mumbo jumbo
    in there of late, so I take it here.

    Now, muslims claim that Jesus wa actual youtube link, right? 😵

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=zuFxmZOiOzE&feature=user
    "Am I the only one having a problem with this? If he's God, then surely he could also have stepped down onto earth looking like a man
    but with all the powers of God? Wouldn't that be a bit more
    convincing?"


    Amazing! This is at the heart of it. You said it right there. There is no question as to the identity of Jesus. Jesus Himself told us who He is. Who are you going to believe?

    The Jesus of the Bible showed us the power of God in all that Jesus thought, said, and did. His death, burial, and resurrection, was a demonstration of His love for us. There is no greater power than the love of God. As demonstrated by His selfless life. Willing to pay the price for our liberty from sin.

    So, when you think about it, who else would be capable of showing us the love of God other than God Himself?
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '08 13:21
    Originally posted by josephw
    .... Jesus Himself told us who He is. Who are you going to believe?...?
    Jesus said he was the SON OF GOD.
    The angel told Mary her child will be the SON OF GOD.
    The Devil referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    The disciples all referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    Most importantly GOD in the form of the Holy Spirit, referred to Christ as His BELOVED SON.

    Why do some Christians foolishly claim that Christ is God.
    They are two separate and distinct entities.
    They are on occasion referred to as ONE, much the same way that husband and wife are ONE. With one purpose and one mindset.
  4. Standard memberyo its me
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    12 Jul '08 13:272 edits
    Trinity;

    God the farther.................. }
    God the son ......................}.............. God
    God the Holy Spirit..............}
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '08 13:42
    Originally posted by yo its me
    Trinity;

    God the farther.................. }
    God the son ......................}.............. God
    God the Holy Spirit..............}
    The word 'Trinity' does not exist in the Bible.
    The term 'God the son' does not exist in the Bible.

    Make your case using the Bible.
  6. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 13:522 edits
    Originally posted by yo its me
    Trinity;

    God the farther.................. }
    God the son ......................}.............. God
    God the Holy Spirit..............}
    1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    And there are many more verses that talk about the Holy Ghost in no uncertain terms.
  7. Illinois
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    12 Jul '08 14:103 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Jesus said he was the SON OF GOD.
    The angel told Mary her child will be the SON OF GOD.
    The Devil referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    The disciples all referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    Most importantly GOD in the form of the Holy Spirit, referred to Christ as His BELOVED SON.

    Why do some Christians foolishly claim that Christ is God.
    They are two se ...[text shortened]... ed to as ONE, much the same way that husband and wife are ONE. With one purpose and one mindset.
    Do you still not see the truth, Raj? Only God is to be worshipped.
    __________

    The Bible tells us: "As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man." —Acts 10:25,26. Peter refused worship in light of the Law that said, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

    In Revelation 19:10, when the apostle John saw an angel, he said, "I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow-servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God." Even the angel of the Lord refused to be worshipped.

    However, here are many more verses showing that Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped, simply because He was God "manifest in the flesh":

    "While he spoke these things to them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay your hand upon her, and she shall live." —Matthew 9:18, "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth you are the Son of God." —Matthew 14:33. "Then she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." —Matthew 15:25. "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." —Matthew 28:9. "When they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." —Matthew 28:17

    He received their worship because He was…

    "…the image of the invisible God… —Colossians 1:15 "…God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory…" —1 Timothy 3:16.

    Jesus Christ is God.
    __________

    (Source: The Evidence Bible, Ray Comfort)
  8. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 14:17
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Jesus said he was the SON OF GOD.
    The angel told Mary her child will be the SON OF GOD.
    The Devil referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    The disciples all referred to Him as the SON OF GOD.
    Most importantly GOD in the form of the Holy Spirit, referred to Christ as His BELOVED SON.

    Why do some Christians foolishly claim that Christ is God.
    They are two se ...[text shortened]... ed to as ONE, much the same way that husband and wife are ONE. With one purpose and one mindset.
    You're assigning meaning to these verses that doesn't apply. There are many more verses, which when taken in their context, attest to the doctrine of the incarnation.

    Your interpretation is far from the overwhelming evidence of scripture that is accepted by the vast majority of Christians world wide through all time. The reason for this is because it's true. Your denial of this core doctrine of the faith is evidence of whether you are a believer or not.

    With the wrong Jesus you don't have Jesus at all. If one doesn't know who Jesus is, then one probably doesn't really know Jesus.
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '08 14:18
    Originally posted by josephw
    1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one..
    Yes... read the whole thing ... its refers over and over to the SON OF GOD as being separate. 3 separate entities can be of one mind and purpose. In the same chapter Christ is called the SON of God.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '08 14:20
    Originally posted by josephw
    You're assigning meaning to these verses that doesn't apply. There are many more verses, which when taken in their context, attest to the doctrine of the incarnation.

    Your interpretation is far from the overwhelming evidence of scripture that is accepted by the vast majority of Christians world wide through all time. The reason for this is because it's t ...[text shortened]... sus at all. If one doesn't know who Jesus is, then one probably doesn't really know Jesus.
    I see, Christ, God, the angels, the disciples, are all wrong and millions of foolish Christians like yourself are right.
  11. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 14:31
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Yes... read the whole thing ... its refers over and over to the SON OF GOD as being separate. 3 separate entities can be of one mind and purpose. In the same chapter Christ is called the SON of God.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 ...[text shortened]... his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    Your going to have to look a little deeper Raj. The whole of scripture teaches that the three entities referred to as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the Godhead. This is how God has revealed Himself.

    There's not time enough to go through the whole Bible and cite every verse that proves this truth. But this truth is accepted by the vast majority of Christians in all places and times.

    The doctrine that tries to deny Jesus His place in the Godhead is the doctrine of devils. All true Christians know this.
  12. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 14:36
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I see, Christ, God, the angels, the disciples, are all wrong and millions of foolish Christians like yourself are right.
    I didn't say Christ, God, the angels, the disciples, are all wrong. You said it. I didn't.

    I said that you are wrong.
  13. Illinois
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    12 Jul '08 14:40
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I see, Christ, God, the angels, the disciples, are all wrong and millions of foolish Christians like yourself are right.
    The title "the Son of God" does not refer to sonship in the human sense. This, specifically, is your error.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '08 14:45
    Originally posted by josephw
    ..The doctrine that tries to deny Jesus His place in the Godhead is the doctrine of devils. ..
    You have a Bible reference for this?
  15. Joined
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    12 Jul '08 14:52
    Uhm, as interesting as this whole trinity deal might be (evident or not),
    has anyone here wondered why God would go through all this
    trouble when he could have just popped out of nowhere in human
    form with all his alleged powers and say: "Hey, guys! Here I am. I'm
    God, and listen... I'm gonna reveal to you all how come I've created you
    and what your purpose on this little green earth is..."

    Or, he could have just made us with all this knowledge given from birth.

    I don't get why he would have had to split himself into three parts,
    reveal himself to a relatively small group of people, and then a couple
    of hundred years after he rejoined his other two parts, some guys sat
    down and put together the bible we're reading as the word of God today.

    Isn't all this just a little peculiar?
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