Is Santorum destroying Christianity?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
ah, but wait. is christianity on the decline because of christian extremism or is christian extremism on the rise because of christian decline?

Interesting point.

Originally posted by whodey
Sure, just like it hurt Christianity when Constatine jumped on the Christ wagon to further his political pursuits. Now when people bash Christianity, they begin with the influence of Constatine on the religion. Before that time, Christians were a harmless peaceful group who were thrown to the lions, but did not return fire.

Your comment reminds me of an earlier thread I posted where I had just watched the movie Agora (2009), which takes place in about 400 AD in Alexandria, Egypt. The Christians were gaining power and taking over the city, especially in view of the weakening Roman empire and with Christianity no longer an outlawed religion, and with the Roman leaders converting to Christianity (many for political convenience and power, and to avoid persecution from the Christians). The Christians were violent and mobbish, mocking other religions, killing masses of Jewish men, women, and children with crude weapons, destroying the great library in Alexandria, reading scripture from Paul that women should be silent and submissive, and killing as a witch the famous female philosopher (astronomer, mathematician) Hypatia played by Rachel Weisz. (Sorry to give that last part away if you have not watched the movie and may watch it.) Rachael Weisz was her usual attractive self in the movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1186830/

The movie depicted the Christian mob ripping and burning the thousands of parchments/scrolls, and yelling that it was "pagan" crap. Supposedly, the Alexandria library was the last large collection of great science and philisophy in the world -- centuries of work. The library was a center of documenting and storing scientific and mathematical progress of humankind. An essence in the movie was that the Alexandria library was the last comprehensive collection, and if lost, would not be recoverable. The Christian authorities and mob didn't seem to place too much value on it, except to destroy it.

One line in the movie that stood out to me was the top Christian leader in Alexandria giving a speech after reading scripture from Paul that women should be silent and submissive, emphasized that there were no women amongst Jesus disciples. I did notice in the movie that one of the powerful Christian bishops was initially a young student of Hypatia and admired and respected her, but in the end he still questioned the idea of a woman being influential or advising the Roman political leader (also her former student), and concluding that maybe she placed a spell on men. The scripture being read by the lead Christian bishop to the Christian mob was scripture Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

The Christian lead bishop commented that Hypathia should be silent. He then indicated to the mob that Hypathia may be a witch. The other Christian bishop I mention above who as a teenager had been Hypathia's student and liked her, still emphasized that the scripture read to the crowd was the word of God, and that Hypathia did appear to put a spell on men. Well, Rachel can put somewhat of a spell on me sometimes.

I also noticed that the elite, whether of the Christians, pagans, Romans, or later the Jewish elite, all seemed to basically get along, were usually practical, and wanted order. Yet, mistakes by the Jews, pagans, and Romans, combined with the rising power of the Christians, and the vehemence of the Christian mob was just too much. Moreover, interesting that it was a Tea Party-like wing of the Christians who incited the mocking and destructive behavior.

One of the extended striking scenes of the movie was the Christian mob rushing the library complex, and ripping books, parchments, and scrolls to pieces, and yes also making big piles and burning them, while the rational educated people (pagans) quickly gathered what scrolls and parchments they could save and escaped out the back of the library complex under Roman guard. The pagans rushing hurredly around with scrolls and parchments overflowing in their arms, trying to locate and save what they considered the most important documents but with little success, as there was not time to avoid the crazy Christian mob. Centuries of history, math, philosophy, and science gone, in the name of the Christian god.

While describing the movie above, I do not mean to imply a supreme historical interpretation, but just merely describing what is in the movie. In the making of the movie, surely there was poetic freedom and guesswork at the history. Historical accuracy regarding 400 AD is surely challenging. Indeed, clearly not every specific detail in the movie was historically perfect, and that the movie was instead loosely based on history, especially when it came to certain personal relationships and dialogue, for instance. Yet, the depiction does not seem unreasonable the general-type behavior of the Christian mobs in about 400 AD in the movie (which starts in 391 AD) was typically accurate -- when the Christians were being legitimized and given freedom to practice their religion, and were rising to power? With their newfound freedom and power, were the Christians violent and mobbish, mocking other religions, slaughtering masses of Jewish men, women, and children, destroying great works of history and science, and demanding that women not play a leadership role in their religion?

Lastly, the movie claimed at the end, right as the credits were were about to roll, that the top Christian bishop leading the mob and who labeled Hypathia as a witch, was later made a saint by the christian church. I think his name was Cyril. A friend told me he is controversial because of his involvement in the expulsion of Jews from Alexandria and in the murder of the Hellenistic philosopher Hypatia. From wikipedia regarding the murder of Hypathia:

Hypatia was believed to be the cause of strained relations between Orestes, the Imperial Roman Prefect, and the Patriarch Cyril, thus she attracted the hatred of the Christians of Alexandria, who wanted the governor and the priest to reconcile. One day, in March AD 415, during Lent, a Christian mob of lay Christians led by "Peter the Reader," waylaid Hypatia's chariot as she travelled home. The mob attacked Hypatia, stripped her naked as a form of humiliation, then dragged her through the streets to the recently Christianised Caesareum church, where they killed her. The reports suggest that the mob of Christians flayed her body with ostraca (pot shards), and then burned her remains.

(Citing O'Connor, John J.; Robertson, Edmund F., "Hypatia", MacTutor History of Mathematics archive, University of St Andrews).

Originally posted by moon1969
Your comment reminds me of an earlier thread I posted where I had just watched the movie Agora (2009), which takes place in about 400 AD in Alexandria, Egypt. The Christians were gaining power and taking over the city, especially in view of the weakening Roman empire and with Christianity no longer an outlawed religion, and with the Roman leaders converting ...[text shortened]... Tea Party-like wing of the Christians who incited the mocking and destructive behavior.[/b]

Wow, a post attacking Christianty and the Tea Party all at once.

Nice.

As far as the burning of the library, is this suppose to be historically accurate? If so, from what source?

Originally posted by whodey
Wow, a post attacking Christianty and the Tea Party all at once.

Nice.

As far as the burning of the library, is this suppose to be historically accurate? If so, from what source?

My guess is that there is disagreement about whether it was the christians who destroyed the famous library. As for Hypatia, she did exist, as you probably know. Fom wikipedia which is not necessarily a reliable source and with citations omitted:

Hypatia (ca. AD 350–370–March 415) was a Greek Neoplatonist philosopher in Roman Egypt who was the first notable woman in mathematics. As head of the Platonist school at Alexandria, she also taught philosophy and astronomy.

As a Neoplatonist philosopher, she belonged to the mathematic tradition of the Academy of Athens, as represented by Eudoxus of Cnidus; she was of the intellectual school of the 3rd century thinker Plotinus, which encouraged logic and mathematical study in place of empirical enquiry and strongly encouraged law in place of nature.

Hypatia lived in Roman Egypt, and was murdered by a Christian mob which accused her of causing religious turmoil.

The mathematician and philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was the daughter of the mathematician Theon Alexandricus (ca. 335–405) and last librarian of the Library of Alexandria in the Museum of Alexandria. She was educated at Athens and in Italy; at about AD 400, she became head of the Platonist school at Alexandria, where she imparted the knowledge of Plato and Aristotle to any student; the pupils included pagans, Christians, and foreigners.

The contemporary 5th-century sources do identify Hypatia of Alexandria as a practitioner and teacher of the philosophy of Plato and Plotinus, but, two hundred years later, the 7th-century Egyptian Coptic bishop John of Nikiû identified her as a Hellenistic pagan and that "she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles".

Moreover, the Suda also stated that "she remained a virgin" and that she rejected a suitor with her menstrual rags [which was in the movie, by the way], saying that they demonstrated "nothing beautiful" about carnal desire.

Hypatia corresponded with former pupil Synesius of Cyrene, who was tutored by her in the philosophical school of Platonism and later became bishop of Ptolemais in AD 410 [also in the movie], an exponent of the Christian Holy Trinity doctrine. Together with the references by the pagan philosopher Damascius, these are the extant records left by Hypatia's pupils at the Platonist school of AlexandriaThe contemporary Christian historiographer Socrates Scholasticus described her in Ecclesiastical History:

"There was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not infrequently appeared in public in the presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more."

[/b]

Originally posted by moon1969
My guess is that there is disagreement about whether it was the christians who destroyed the famous library. As for Hypatia, she did exist, as you probably know. Fom wikipedia which is not necessarily a reliable source and with citations omitted:

Hypatia (ca. AD 350–370–March 415) was a Greek Neoplatonist philosopher in Roman Egypt who was the ...[text shortened]... on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more."

[/b]

And Nero blamed the Christians for burning Rome.

I suppose the main thing is that you enjoyed the movie cause it attacked a religion you don't care for.

Ah, the simple pleasures in life!!!

Originally posted by rwingett
It is well documented that "the nones" (people with no religious affiliation) are the fastest growing segment of the population. They're around 16% of the population and rising. When people like Santorum get on the campaign trail and spew their bile, it further alienates large segments of the population, who are horrified at his medieval notions. The hard c ...[text shortened]... like Santorum continue to be the face of Christianity, I think this process is inevitable.

Santorum, Romney et al. are destroying the GOP.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
Santorum, Romney et al. are destroying the GOP.

It is amazing to me that while the economy is recovering, unemployment going down, and perception improving, the President is vulnerable. Yet, the GOP does not put up a viable candidate to take on a vulnerable sitting President? Wow. I think the right-wingers and tea party cost the GOP this election.

Originally posted by whodey
And Nero blamed the Christians for burning Rome.

I suppose the main thing is that you enjoyed the movie cause it attacked a religion you don't care for.

Ah, the simple pleasures in life!!!

So do you think the historical evidence supports that the Christians killed the famous mathematician Hypathia? Or do you refused to believe that is even a possibility.