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Originally posted by epiphinehasBut doesn’t this contradict your doctrine of election? Can the elect become “unelect” and separated from God because they are deceived by the deceiver? Or are there some who are not among the elect, who are not predestined either way, and whom God wishes to save, but who might be lost due to Satan’s activities?
"Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).
"You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God" (Ephesians 2:2).
"If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidde cuser. He tempts people to break God's law, then accuses them before the Lord.
In that case, if anyone loses salvation by being so deceived, that represents a defeat for God.
Or does Satan simply fail to deceive anyone for whom it would matter in the end? In which case, that aspect of Satan’s doings simply—doesn’t matter. Or is Satan doing God’s will by making sure that unbelievers remain unbelievers, “lest they turn and be saved”?
Basically, Satan either—
(1) Is sufficiently powerful to defeat God’s salvific desire and intention (even if only by one person); or
(2) Soteriologically, Satan doesn’t matter, and hence (on that score) need not be feared.
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Originally posted by vistesdI really don't know. I've been basically parroting the scripture. It's starting to become apparent to me that there is a great mystery involved in God's grace (the elect, etc.). One which I am unable to adequately explain.
But doesn’t this contradict your doctrine of election? Can the elect become “unelect” and separated from God because they are deceived by the deceiver? Or are there some who are not among the elect, who are not predestined either way, and whom God wishes to save, but who might be lost due to Satan’s activities?
In that case, if anyone loses salvation b ...[text shortened]... or
(2) Soteriologically, Satan doesn’t matter, and hence (on that score) need not be feared.
At one end of the spectrum, everything is determined and foreknown (God's perspective), and at our end everything is undetermined and unknown. The scripture gives evidence of both perspectives: warnings for unbelievers and believers, as if our eternal destiny were not yet set in stone, and yet also proclamations about God's triple-O insight and authority, as if it is He who chooses us, and not us, Him.
I suppose believers can become unbelievers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were elect and are now 'unelect', just that they weren't of the elect to begin with. However, were they to renew their faith and come back to the fold, perhaps they were ultimately of the elect. From our perspective everything seems open to chance and whim, but our perspective is severely limited. God says no one can pluck His chosen ones out of His hand, and I'm sure He means what He says, but who of us can know who is who, or how God is able to assure the elect's salvation?
From our perspective the danger Satan poses is real and the battle must be waged wholeheartedly; from God's perspective everything is at rest, decided, predetermined, foreknown, etc.
I would say that, Satan is indeed very powerful, but ultimately cannot defeat God's purposes. God is God and ultimately everything and everyone plays a part in the fulfillment of His purpose. I cannot choose 1 or 2, because neither rings true biblically.
Originally posted by jonas555It makes sense to me. Think about it. Why are some people so nasty? Is it because they do not like certain people? In all actuality, it is more likely that they simply are filled with hate no matter who is around them. For example, when you fall in love, what are you like to be around? More than likely you are happy and want to share your happiness with others around you. Conversely, if you break up with that person what kind of person are you like to be around? More than likely you are a real drag and not nice to be around because you are miserable. This is how I picture Lucifer and his minions. They are simply nasty to be around because they are seperated from the Creator and are miserable as a result. They are full of hate and fear and no matter who they encounter they will be more than happy to share their misery with us. In fact, we feel compelled to share how we feel with others whether it be for good or for ill.
A magical bad guy running around convincing good people to do bad things and encouraging bad people to keep up the good work?
No, I don't buy it.
Originally posted by epiphinehas>> NRS Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
I really don't know. I've been basically parroting the scripture. It's starting to become apparent to me that there is a great mystery involved in God's grace (the elect, etc.). One which I am unable to adequately explain.
At one end of the spectrum, everything is determined and foreknown (God's perspective), and at our end everything is undetermin ...[text shortened]... nt of His purpose. I cannot choose 1 or 2, because neither rings true biblically.
“If possible...”
I looked up all the NT verses that mention the elect or the chosen. The word is the same in the Greek. It strikes me that, although salvation is offered to all, the elect may be chosen for a purpose—
>> NRS 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
>> NRS 2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.
Without revisiting the issue of universal salvation, that would at least bridge some of the difference between our positions.
>> NRS John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, "Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
After all, it does not say: “...who takes away the sin only of those whom are chosen.”
Originally posted by GascraftI think evil lives in all of us, and life is about learning to recognise it's misleading influence on us, and through doing this, minimise or even remove the influence.
What do you think?
I think the idea that there is one sentient being who eminates all this evil is silly. He would be obselete in our world.
Originally posted by whodeyActually I wasn't trying to be nasty. I was just trying to give a short description of the devil the way I saw him, which was as a ridiculous and unlikely, and my answer to the question, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.
It makes sense to me. Think about it. Why are some people so nasty? Is it because they do not like certain people? In all actuality, it is more likely that they simply are filled with hate no matter who is around them. For example, when you fall in love, what are you like to be around? More than likely you are happy and want to share your happiness with ...[text shortened]... In fact, we feel compelled to share how we feel with others whether it be for good or for ill.
I don't know who you think it is I have something against, but I have no reason to dislike anyone here. I certainly haven't singled out anyone, attempted to insult their character, or compare them to Satan.
Originally posted by epiphinehasfrom God's perspective everything is at rest, decided, predetermined, foreknown, etc.
I really don't know. I've been basically parroting the scripture. It's starting to become apparent to me that there is a great mystery involved in God's grace (the elect, etc.). One which I am unable to adequately explain.
At one end of the spectrum, everything is determined and foreknown (God's perspective), and at our end everything is undetermin ...[text shortened]... nt of His purpose. I cannot choose 1 or 2, because neither rings true biblically.
...I don't think God foreknows , I think he knows after the event . He doesn't know what you WILL do tomorrow , he is just there watching you. He doesn't know until you have done it , but then the moment you do it and the day before you do it are all NOW to him.