1. SubscriberScotty70
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    19 Feb '09 20:22
    Not trying to be funny here, but I am just looking for some clarification.
    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Considering the level of human suffering and despair, I almost believe Hell is right here on earth.
    Throughout history, the netherworld has been described in many different ways and Satan in many incarnations, including taking the form of a woman.
    Once again, I am just looking for some clarification. I would like to say upfront that I am not badmouthing or denouncing any one religion since this idea seems to be a common thread through most religions in different forms.
  2. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Feb '09 01:221 edit
    Originally posted by Scotty70

    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Section 1034 of the Catholic Catechism explains:

    Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"


    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm
  3. Standard memberbill718
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    20 Feb '09 01:53
    Originally posted by Scotty70
    Not trying to be funny here, but I am just looking for some clarification.
    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Considering the level of human suffering and despair, I almost believe Hell is right here on e ...[text shortened]... religion since this idea seems to be a common thread through most religions in different forms.
    The short answer is "Yes" there is a hell.😏
  4. Account suspended
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    20 Feb '09 02:354 edits
    Originally posted by Scotty70
    Not trying to be funny here, but I am just looking for some clarification.
    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Considering the level of human suffering and despair, I almost believe Hell is right here on e ...[text shortened]... religion since this idea seems to be a common thread through most religions in different forms.
    HELL NO!

    A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew sheohl and the Greek haides. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheohl 31 times and from haides 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since sheohl is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version sheohl is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.

    In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word sheohl was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, “grave” and “pit” were used, and “hell” is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated sheohl in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated haides in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Geenna (English, “Gehenna&rdquo😉 is rendered “hell” throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.

    Concerning this use of “hell” to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”

    Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

    It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “from . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

    The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

    “Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.

    Hopefully this will aid you in forming a reasoned opinion for yourself - regards Robbie
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    20 Feb '09 02:443 edits
    Originally posted by Scotty70
    Not trying to be funny here, but I am just looking for some clarification.
    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Considering the level of human suffering and despair, I almost believe Hell is right here on e ...[text shortened]... religion since this idea seems to be a common thread through most religions in different forms.
    There will be eternal suffering of the wicked.

    Whoever's name is not found written in the book of life in the last judgment will go into eternal suffering.

    The best book on the subject that I have ever read is

    Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades by Robert Govett

    You can order it online of you search for

    SCHOETTLE PUBLISHING CO., INC.

    All of Robert Govett's books on biblical themes are exceedingling lucid and clear and well backed up.
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    20 Feb '09 02:531 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    HELL NO!

    A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew sheohl and the Greek haides. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheohl 31 times and from haides 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since sheohl is also translated 31 t ...[text shortened]... ance.

    Hopefully this will aid you in forming a reasoned opinion for yourself - regards Robbie
    Not withstanding Milton or Dante the Bible teaches of eternal punishment.

    It is not annhilation but suffering.

    It is not nonexistence but PUNISHMENT.

    And throwing up a lot of smoke about Dante and Milton and Assyrian or Babylonian religion doesn't make it go away.
  7. Break-twitching
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    20 Feb '09 04:34
    Originally posted by Scotty70
    Not trying to be funny here, but I am just looking for some clarification.
    I do believe that your soul is judged at the end of your days, but where in the Bible does it say that Hell is this horrible place that is all fire and brimstone and eternal suffering?
    Considering the level of human suffering and despair, I almost believe Hell is right here on e ...[text shortened]... religion since this idea seems to be a common thread through most religions in different forms.
    One of the best sources concerning Hell, and you can 'take it to the bank' regarding its truthfulness is the Holy Bible.
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    20 Feb '09 04:41
    Originally posted by jaywill
    There will be eternal suffering of the wicked.

    Whoever's name is not found written in the book of life in the last judgment will go into eternal suffering.

    The best book on the subject that I have ever read is

    [b]Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades
    by Robert Govett

    You can order it online of you search for

    SCHOETTLE ...[text shortened]... Robert Govett's books on biblical themes are exceedingling lucid and clear and well backed up.[/b]
    look at the translation of the original words, Hell is a completely unsatisfactory rendition, the concept was unknown to the Hebrews and is unjust from the standpoint of a God of justice, for he would never condemn to eternal punishment anyone who was been born into an imperfect state and made mistakes, Never! the dead are unconscious, feel no pain and cannot be tormented. there is no such thing as a literal place of eternal torment, its nonsense!
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    20 Feb '09 04:452 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Not withstanding Milton or Dante the [b]Bible teaches of eternal punishment.

    It is not annhilation but suffering.

    It is not nonexistence but PUNISHMENT.

    And throwing up a lot of smoke about Dante and Milton and Assyrian or Babylonian religion doesn't make it go away.[/b]
    absolute nonsense! one hundred percent unadulterated pure nonsense! its just another pre christian Pagan tradition that the church seems so fond of adopting! If the dead are unconscious as the Bible states, they cannot be tormented, full stop, end of story, go home and do something else, this fact you cannot deny nor circumvent with guile! you seem totally confused as to what the church teaches and what the Bible teaches, for let us be quite clear, the two, since the end of the apostolic era, have rarely been synonymous!
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    20 Feb '09 05:122 edits
    =======================================
    look at the translation of the original words, Hell is a completely unsatisfactory rendition,
    =======================================


    I agree somewhat. But that does not argue that there is not the teaching of eternal punishment in the Bible.

    The etymology of the word hell and the teaching of eternal retribution are two different matters.

    =========================================
    the concept was unknown to the Hebrews and is unjust from the standpoint of a God of justice, for he would never condemn to eternal punishment anyone who was been born into an imperfect state and made mistakes, Never!
    =========================================


    But if you ask thieves to make a law about the punishment for stealing, they would surely say that there is no punishment. Or they would make the law be something not too uncomfortable.

    Likewise, if we ask extortioners to legislate a law against extortion, they would either make it legal or the penalty would be light.

    Point is that Man is not to be trusted to make up what should be the penalty for rebellion against God. Man has a vested interest in excusing himself. God did not come to us and ask human sinners to recommend what punishment there should be for refusing to believe in His Son. We are not qualified to counsel God on this matter.

    Both the responsbility and the authority for deciding what should be the penalty for the unrepentent rejection of Christ rests with God.

    You and I and all the sinners of the world cannot instruct God on this matter because we all have a vested interest to go light on ourselves. And we do not understand the seriousness of the crime. So like it or not we have to believe what God has said about it.


    ===============================
    the dead are unconscious, feel no pain and cannot be tormented. there is no such thing as a literal place of eternal torment, its nonsense!
    ====================================


    No it is not nonsense. It is very serious. And the most explicit words concerning the matter God reserved to be spoken by Jesus Christ Himself. That same loving, merciful, forgiving, longsuffering, patient friend of sinners, that kind and good shepherd, that great physician Jesus, IT WAS FROM THAT SAME MOUTH that come the warnings about punishment beyond physical death.

    For example here:

    "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)

    Christ teaches here that there is a DISTINCTION between the soul and the body. Man is able to kill the human body. But the killing of the soul is outside of man's ability. It is NOT outside of God's ability, THEREFORE we should reserve our greater fear for God.

    Do not try to sidetrack the issue with discussion about Gehenna and who the audience is, etc. etc. etc. Do not try to nullify the effect of this teaching with little side issues.

    The greater fear must be reserved for God because AFTER the body is killed He alone is able to FURTHER harm us. So we have to have a greater concern for being right with God.


    IF after the body was killed the sinner was unconscious, then there would be no reason to fear. The reason to fear is precisely because suffering BEYOND physical death can be imputed to the sinner by Someone greater than man - God.

    The essence of the teaching is very clear. Side issues about the Hebrew concept and the city dump outside of Jerusalem, Gehenna, etc. do not help to dull the force of this teaching.

    Man can only do so much to you. But God can go beyond what man can do. Therefore we should be more concerned to be right with God.
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    20 Feb '09 12:04
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=======================================
    look at the translation of the original words, Hell is a completely unsatisfactory rendition,
    =======================================


    I agree somewhat. But that does not argue that there is not the teaching of eternal punishment in the Bible.

    The etymology of the word hell and ...[text shortened]... d can go beyond what man can do. Therefore we should be more concerned to be right with God.[/b]
    yes quite jaywill, the fact of the matter is quite clear my learned friend

    1. Sheol - common grave of mankind
    2.Haides - common grave of mankind
    3.Gehenna - symbol of eternal destruction not torment
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    20 Feb '09 18:042 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes quite jaywill, the fact of the matter is quite clear my learned friend

    1. Sheol - common grave of mankind
    2.Haides - common grave of mankind
    3.Gehenna - symbol of eternal destruction not torment
    ======================================
    yes quite jaywill, the fact of the matter is quite clear my learned friend

    1. Sheol - common grave of mankind
    2.Haides - common grave of mankind
    ======================================


    The biblical Shoel is more than simply a grave. It is a place with a location. The Old Testament Sheol is the New Testament Hadees. And both have a physical location.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20 and 6:6 do tell us that the dead all go to one place. But that does not mean that they are all carried to their graves. For Hadees is never full while graves do soon fill up (Prov. 27:20; 30:15). While graves can be filled up to the brim so that no more bodies can be placed in them, Hadees, the Bible says, is never filled up.

    Hadees or Sheol is described as a place situated below the interior of the earth. "I will GO DOWN into Hadees to my son mourning ..." (Gen. 37:35; compare 42:38, 2 Sam. 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6..

    Jacob did not believe that his son Joseph had been carried to the tomb. He assumed that Joseph have been torn apart by a wild animal. So Jacob had no thought of Joseph being in a grave. Yet Jacob said that he would "GO DOWN" to his son mourning his death. This negates that Sheol is simply a common grave.

    At death the spirit and soul of man is seperated from the physical body. Jacob meant that his immaterial part (spirit and soul) would descend down into the earth crying to the realm of his son's departed spirit and soul.

    Furthermore, this realm, this place "down" is said to be covered to man's eyes but naked and opened to the eyes of God "Sheol is naked before Him" (see Job 26:6 and Prov. 15:11). A grave can be uncovered by men who dig it up. Sheol is forever covered before the eyes of man.

    If man could dig deep enough into the earth he could conceivably find this realm of Sheol / Hadees - "Though they DIG into Sheol, there shall my hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there will I bring them down" (See Amos 9:2)

    The conspirators against Moses in the wilderness are punished with a new infliction from God. They go down ALIVE, body and soul together into the place of departed spirits - (Num 16:30,33)

    "But if Jehovah brings about a new thing, and the ground opens up its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they descend ALIVE into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have despised Jehovah." (v30. my emphasis)

    "So they and all that belonged to them DESCENDED ALIVE INTO SHEOL; AND THE EARTH CLOSED OVER THEM, and they perished from the midst of the congregation." (v.33 my emphasis)


    These passages leave no doubt that not only can God send the departed immaterial part of man (spirit and soul) down to Hadees, but the human ALIVE with body and soul can descend down there as well. Apparently in Numbers 30 God performed this "new thing" and demonstrated His absolute authority over both man's entire being and Sheol / Hadees the place.

    In the extraordinary account of God allowing the witch of Endor to fetch the soul of Samuel from Hadees, he is said to COME UP. The king says to the witch "Bring me him UP, whom I shall name for you." The woman says "Whom shall I bring UP unto you." See 1 Samuel 28:8,11.

    The witch then says "I beheld gods [angels] ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH." King Saul asks "What is he of?" And she said "AN old man comes up, and he is covered with a mantle."

    Now I do not pretend to understand all of the physics of this. However, if we take the revelation of the Bible seriously we have to admit that what is communcated here is that the departed spirit/soul of a dead prophet COMES UP from Sheol which is in the interior of the earth. He was apparently recognizable. And the desceased prophet warns Saul that this time tomorrow he and his sons will also join him in Hadees.

    "The Lord will deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines , and to-morrow you and your sons will be with me."

    These passages reveal that Sheol is a locality, a place in the interior of the earth that if possible man could dig down into. It is covered before our human eyes. It is not covered before the eyes of God. God challenges Job "Have the gates of death been opened unto you?" (Job. 38:17)

    And in the New Testament Jesus, in dying, descended to the lower parts of the earth as well, into Hadees - "Now this, He ascended, what is it except that He also DESCENDED into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH ..." (Eph. 4:9)

    When Jesus died and descended down to the "lower parts of the earth" He spent three days in "the heart of the earth" - "For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in THE HEART OF THE EARTH three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)

    This place that Jesus went to in His immaterial being was in the earth. And it was Hadees where God would not allow His soul to be abandoned there. For the prophecy related to His resurrection states:

    "My flesh shall rest in hope because You will not leave My soul in SHEOL (HADEES), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see he pit." ( Psalm 16:10 comp Acts 13:35)

    His body would not be allowed to rot. Neither would His soul be abandoned in the realm of departed souls in Hadees. Three days only would He be in the heart of the earth. And in that place to which He went, there was not only an unpleasant place but a Paradise as well. For on the cross He said that the day He and the believing thief were to expire they would be together in Paradise.

    "And he said, Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And He said to him, Truly I say to you, TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43)

    Hadees, under the earth, therefore does have a comfortable section called Paradise as well as a section for torment. Jesus did not go on the day of His death to Heaven. But He went to "the lower parts of the earth".


    ====================================
    3.Gehenna - symbol of eternal destruction not torment
    ========================================


    I will have to respond to this in another post.
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    20 Feb '09 18:515 edits
    ====================================
    3.Gehenna - symbol of eternal destruction not torment
    ========================================

    It is a symbol of God's ability to deal with man after the physical body has died.

    That dealing may be temporary or it may be eternal. But if it were not possible for Gehenna to represent torment then Jesus would have no reason to warn us to fear it.

    If after physical death has taken place, there is NO possibility for man or God to further harm us then Luke 12:5 would make no sense:

    "And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One."

    If "afterwards" from killing there is nothing more that either God or man can do to hurt you, then there is no need for Jesus to add "yes, I tell you, fear this One."

    Why does He advise us to fear God? It is because AFTERWARDS to the physical death, God has further authority to punish man more. Unconsciousness of annhilation will NOT protect you from this FURTHER hurting at the hands of God. So we must seek to be right with God at all costs. Death will not place man outside of the realm of His authority to inflict torment, punishment, and retribution.

    Gehenna therefore is a symbol of God's authority to hurt "AFTERWARDS" of man's death.

    Now I said before that Hadees has a section of torment and a comfortable section. The comfortable section is called Paradise. And on the day Jesus and the believing thief died, they went together to Paradise.

    This Paradise is also called "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16. And there Lazarus went when he died. The rich man went to Hadees also - "And in Hadees he lifted up his eyes" (Luke 16:23)

    What did the dead rich man see? He looked out through the tormenting flames and saw Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. He saw Lazarus in Paradise. They both died. One went in his immaterial being to Paradise. The other went to a place of punishment. Both were in Hadees.

    In no parable of Jesus is a person NAMED specifically. The fact that the name Lazarus is used argues for the fact that this was something Jesus witnessed somehow, not as a parabolic teaching but as a historical event.

    Hadees or Sheol is afterall naked before the eyes of God as the OT says.

    I could speak much about this teaching in Luke 16. But the only point I wish to make is this:

    The ONLY happiness that someone in the punishment of Hell can have is the comfort of knowing that his or her loved ones are not coming to the same place.

    The rich man in the torment did not want his 5 brothers to end up as he did. Five being the symbolic number of responsibility. This means that it was his brother's responsibility to heed the word of God.

    If you have a loved one who has died and gone to Hell in this negative sense, there is nothing you can do except one thing.

    YOU DON"T GO TO THE SAME PLACE. Knowing that you, their loved one, still being alive, are too wise to make the choice which they made, is the only comfort that I can see them having.

    "And he said, Then I ask you, Father, to send him to the house of my father - For I have five brothers - so that he may solemnly testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment." (Luke 16:27-28)

    Abraham in Abraham's bosom replies "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead" (v.31)

    The One who has risen from the dead is Jesus Christ. Therefore concerning all important things related to man's destiny in this life AND beyond death must be received from Jesus Christ. Jesus is the One God has given to mankind to teach man the vital truths of what lies beyond death. Jesus is the one who warns us that God, His Father, has the authority to inflict punishment upon man after man's death, as in the case of the rich man in Luke 16 and in the case of the teaching about Gehenna.

    To ignore the Teacher who went into death and came out again, is a tragic bit of foolishness that no one can afford.
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