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    17 May '08 11:25
    There's something that has been puzzling me about evolution that I've been meaning to get to for some time now. Perhaps this has been discussed before, so bear with me this one time.

    How shall I put this? Why is it, if evolution were true, that man is not in harmony with the entire human race, just as the rest of nature is with itself?

    I probably worded that wrong.

    Let me say it this way. If left to itself, it seems to me that nature would harmonize with itself in a balanced state. In a natural way as opposed to the way I see man as a lying, cheating, murdering S.O.B.

    I see a contrast between how nature harmonizes with itself and the way humans are at war with each other.

    I see a disconnect between humans and the rest of nature.

    It seems to me that if evolution was a viable explanation for the existence of life everything would be in a balanced and harmonious state. Instead I see disharmony and discord.

    How can evolution produce a creature so out of tune with itself and each other as is the human race?

    This is not a stab at evolution. No defensive replies please. I may not have time to respond to any replies, but I will read with interest.
  2. Donationrwingett
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    17 May '08 11:57
    Originally posted by josephw
    There's something that has been puzzling me about evolution that I've been meaning to get to for some time now. Perhaps this has been discussed before, so bear with me this one time.

    How shall I put this? Why is it, if evolution were true, that man is not in harmony with the entire human race, just as the rest of nature is with itself?

    I probably worde ...[text shortened]... replies please. I may not have time to respond to any replies, but I will read with interest.
    Are lions and gazelles at harmony with one another?
  3. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    17 May '08 12:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    There's something that has been puzzling me about evolution that I've been meaning to get to for some time now. Perhaps this has been discussed before, so bear with me this one time.

    How shall I put this? Why is it, if evolution were true, that man is not in harmony with the entire human race, just as the rest of nature is with itself?

    I probably worde ...[text shortened]... replies please. I may not have time to respond to any replies, but I will read with interest.
    The phrase "nature, red in tooth and claw" is truer than you think.

    Rwingett is right about lions and gazelles. Likewise, competition between individuals is often harsher than you might expect - look at parasitism for example.

    Humans have used our big, evolved brains to make machines which can cause far more damage than any individual organism can, and to exploit our environment to a far greater degree than we ever could before.
  4. Standard memberDavid C
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    17 May '08 12:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    I probably worded that wrong.
    Yeah, you must have...since evolution isn't an "explanation for the existence of life" at all. Furthermore, you only see man as a "lying, cheating, mudering S.O.B." because you've been conditioned to terminal pessimism by your religion.
  5. Joined
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    18 May '08 02:45
    Whether you all know it or not, and you don't, you have proved my point. If evolution was a viable theory everything that lives would have evolved in a harmonious way. Anything out of balance and harmony with everything else would and should have been out of order, and therefore would not have evolved at all.
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    18 May '08 03:25
    Originally posted by josephw
    If evolution was a viable theory everything that lives would have evolved in a harmonious way. Anything out of balance and harmony with everything else would and should have been out of order, and therefore would not have evolved at all.
    You prove that you don't actually understand what the theory of evolution states.
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    18 May '08 04:14
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Are lions and gazelles at harmony with one another?
    Yes, they are. Gazelles provide food for lions; lions weed out weak gazelles and keep their numbers down. A robust harmony! Otherwise known as the 'food chain'.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    18 May '08 04:37
    Originally posted by josephw
    There's something that has been puzzling me about evolution that I've been meaning to get to for some time now. Perhaps this has been discussed before, so bear with me this one time.

    How shall I put this? Why is it, if evolution were true, that man is not in harmony with the entire human race, just as the rest of nature is with itself?

    I probably worde ...[text shortened]... replies please. I may not have time to respond to any replies, but I will read with interest.
    I don't see the kind of "harmony" I think you do in nature. It's a brutal thing, nature, full of suffering and misery. Not really much different from mankind, and rightly so, since humans are natural too.
  9. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    18 May '08 04:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I don't see the kind of "harmony" I think you do in nature. It's a brutal thing, nature, full of suffering and misery.
    See, you've made nature a thing of suffering and misery. How do you enter into the experience of animals and determine the quality of their lives? What is your secret?!
  10. Donationrwingett
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    18 May '08 09:49
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Yes, they are. Gazelles provide food for lions; lions weed out weak gazelles and keep their numbers down. A robust harmony! Otherwise known as the 'food chain'.
    I'm sure the gazelles would object to such a broad broad definition of harmony.
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    18 May '08 11:16
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Yes, they are. Gazelles provide food for lions; lions weed out weak gazelles and keep their numbers down. A robust harmony! Otherwise known as the 'food chain'.
    We all know this is true. And the same goes for virtually everything else in nature. Balance and harmony is maintained in nature for mutual survival.

    My problem with the theory of evolution is how do we explain why humans act worse than animals. I say worse than animals because while we can understand and accept the behavior of animals I cannot find in the theory of evolution an acceptable explanation for human conduct.

    I am accused of being a pessimist because I decry the condition of the human race. That is not fair. While there is indeed much to praise about the good we do, it is also obvious there is a great deal more suffering.

    All I'm trying to do here in this thread is to try to zero in on the issue of what I perceive is a flaw in the idea that evolution can explain why humans behave the way they do. Mutual destruction cannot be the work of evolution.

    There appears to be a disconnect between what we can say of nature and what we see in human behavior.
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    18 May '08 12:31
    Originally posted by josephw
    We all know this is true. And the same goes for virtually everything else in nature. Balance and harmony is maintained in nature for mutual survival.

    My problem with the theory of evolution is how do we explain why humans act worse than animals. I say worse than animals because while we can understand and accept the behavior of animals I cannot find in th ...[text shortened]... appears to be a disconnect between what we can say of nature and what we see in human behavior.
    I explained this already.

    We aren't "better" or "worse", whatever those terms mean.

    We've just got a far bigger impact that any other species. If a lion could wipe out the entire population of gazelles to bolster its own survival, even for one generation, it would.

    We have the same population growth dynamics as a bacteria, we just haven't yet got to the point (although we are rapidly approaching it) that we destroy our own habitat to the point where our population starts to decrease.

    Once we have no oil, our food supply will dwindle, and we'll come back to the population our planet can support.

    My father, a farmer, always said, "buy as many sheep as you like, and they'll die back to what the land can support". The same is true of us and the planet.
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    18 May '08 13:40
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I'm sure the gazelles would object to such a broad broad definition of harmony.
    Gazelles will accept what their leaders tell them without question.
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    18 May '08 13:41
    Originally posted by josephw
    My problem with the theory of evolution is how do we explain why humans act worse than animals.
    Sometimes animals act worse than animals. Chimpanzees have been known to kill for the fun of it. Captive baboons have become addicted to alcohol and tobacco.
  15. Cape Town
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    19 May '08 08:33
    Originally posted by josephw
    Let me say it this way. If left to itself, it seems to me that nature would harmonize with itself in a balanced state. In a natural way as opposed to the way I see man as a lying, cheating, murdering S.O.B.

    I see a contrast between how nature harmonizes with itself and the way humans are at war with each other.
    You are clearly very biased about both people and nature. Man is a very social animal and not nearly as bad as you imply. Other species on the other hand is generally not different than man when it comes to behavior.
    I recently saw a documentary about a group of chimpanzees which regularly attack another group and frequently kill some of its members and even practice cannibalism.
    Lying, cheating and murdering is common if not universal in nature, both within species and between species. Nature is about competition not about 'harmony'. Many complicated systems do reach a balance but to call that harmony and to imply that balance = no lying, cheating, stealing or violence is wrong. Man has found a balance between honesty and dishonesty and it is the exact balance predicted by evolution, and the same balance seen throughout the animal kingdom with variation mostly based on how social a species is.

    Now I have a question for you: Did you really think that nature was in harmony or did you make that up to support your argument?
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