Well, It talks about Satan being cast out of heaven and down to Earth; it also talks about some saints from somewhere that overcame Satan. I see nothing of this corporate manchild that you speak of.
Do you see anything in principle of a group of Christians WITH Jesus, defeating Satan in this verse?
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Rom. 16:20)
I do not ask if you see THE man-child in Romans 16:20 per se. I only ask if you see the PRINCIPLE of the church through Christ's prevailing grace crushing Satan under THEIR feet ?
@sonship saidI only ask if you see the PRINCIPLE of the church through Christ's prevailing grace crushing Satan under THEIR feet ?Well, It talks about Satan being cast out of heaven and down to Earth; it also talks about some saints from somewhere that overcame Satan. I see nothing of this corporate manchild that you speak of.
Do you see anything in principle of a group of Christians WITH Jesus, defeating Satan in this verse?
[b]"Now the God of peace will crush S ...[text shortened]... see the PRINCIPLE of the church through Christ's prevailing grace crushing Satan under THEIR feet ?
I see the PRINCIPLE of the saints saved by Jesus crushing Satan under THEIR feet.
When you say church, do you mean the Catholic church? Mormon Church? Jehovah witness church? Lutheran Church? Methodist Church? Presbyterian church? etc, etc, etc. And, they all say that they are the ones who have it right; and that, everyone else is going to hell because they have it wrong. Do you mean one of those churches? Do these churches have Christ as their head? Or their man-made religion? A personal pet-peeve of mine.
@kingdavid403 saidChrist's church is made up of people all over the world who live according to the commandments of Christ. These are referred to as
I only ask if you see the PRINCIPLE of the church through Christ's prevailing grace crushing Satan under THEIR feet ?
I see the PRINCIPLE of the saints saved by Jesus crushing Satan under THEIR feet.
When you say church, do you mean the Catholic church? Mormon Church? Jehovah witness church? Lutheran Church? Methodist Church? Presbyterian church? etc, etc, e ...[text shortened]... these churches have Christ as their head? Or their man-made religion? A personal pet-peeve of mine.
- my brothers, sisters, mothers who do the will of God
- the sheep who hear his voice
- the disciples who does what he says
- his friends who did whatsoever he commanded.
- the ones who bear fruit
Many will be part of a manmade church who condemn the commandments of Christ and will hear Christ say to them
... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)
@rajk999 saidWell, finally something we can agree upon. However, we must always remember that we all have sin in us; and the battle is life long with some failures along the way. Praise to Jesus that those failures are forgiven and cleansed IF we remain in Him; or we return to Him in Truth.
Christ's church is made up of people all over the world who live according to the commandments of Christ. These are referred to as
- my brothers, sisters, mothers who do the will of God
- the sheep who hear his voice
- the disciples who does what he says
- his friends who did whatsoever he commanded.
- the ones who bear fruit
Many will be part of a manmade church who ...[text shortened]... d, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)[/i]
If a church condemns loving all others in Christ; then Christ is not their Head. God's Law is Love. Love for Him; and love for all that He has created, especially other people. The two commandments given by Jesus say it all.
@KingDavid403
I think you should answer a question also. I asked it but you did not reply specifically. Someone else jumped in.
Now I would like you to please tell me if the THEY does not refer to the man-child than to WHO do you think the THEY- THIER - THEM -our brothers who overcame the accuser of the brothers refers TO?
I would like to know to who ELSE in the chapter or anywhere you feel this passage applies then.
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast own, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
@sonship saidNow I would like you to please tell me if the THEY does not refer to the [b]man-child than to WHO do you think the THEY- THIER - THEM -our brothers who overcame the accuser of the brothers refers TO?
@KingDavid403
I think you should answer a question also. I asked it but you did not reply specifically. Someone else jumped in.
Now I would like you to please tell me if the THEY does not refer to the man-child than to WHO do you think the THEY- THIER - THEM -our brothers who overcame the accuser of the brothers refers TO?
I would like to k ...[text shortened]... e word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11) [/b]
I already told you that a couple posts ago. They are all the saints that are saved by Jesus from around the world.
@kingdavid403 said"All others in Christ"?
Well, finally something we can agree upon. However, we must always remember that we all have sin in us; and the battle is life long with some failures along the way. Praise to Jesus that those failures are forgiven and cleansed IF we remain in Him; or we return to Him in Truth.
If a church condemns loving all others in Christ; then Christ is not their Head. God's L ...[text shortened]... all that He has created, especially other people. The two commandments given by Jesus say it all.
So the questions arise:
- How do you know who is in Christ and who is not?
- Are you saying that churches are to show love only to those in Christ?
@rajk999 said- Are you saying that churches are to show love only to those in Christ?
"All others in Christ"?
So the questions arise:
- How do you know who is in Christ and who is not?
- Are you saying that churches are to show love only to those in Christ?
No. They are to love ALL with the Love of Christ.
How do you know who is in Christ and who is not?
As Jesus said: "You will know them by their fruits." There are also many good people that are not Christians that we are to love also with the love of Christ; Everybody. That's how Jesus works thru us to bring people to the Lord. We are to go out and 'Preach The Good News' of Christ's Salvation; Not condemnation and judgement.
@sonship saidIm only now reading this foolishness. Nobody is raptured [whatever that is], to the throne of God. There is no bible reference to support that. According to Paul, there are some who will meet Christ who will bring along the dead Saints, in the air. THE AIR, THAT IS THE CLOUDS
So the catching up to the throne of God should be the rapture of someone/s just prior to the last three and one half years of this age - the great tribulation.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV)
The throne of God is not in the clouds. Seriously are you that dumb?
The woman is Israel
The Manchild is Jesus Christ
The they, them, etc etc you are harping about, are mostly the Saints in Christ.
Why you continue to bring that foolish Witness Lies doctrine here to fool people is really pathetic.
@KingDavid403
Concerning Rev. 12:10,11 you said -
I already told you that a couple posts ago. They are all the saints that are saved by Jesus from around the world.
But the ones mentioned in verses 10,11 have overcome, but the saints around the world on earth are BEING overcome under the fierce persecutions of the beast in 13:5-7
And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty-two months. (v.5)
And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority was given to him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (v.7)
Here the villainous beast is overcoming the saints. But 12:10 says that the salvation and power and kingdom is in the hands of the overcomers "NOW".
So a portion of the brothers have overcome and a portion of the brothers left on earth are to be overcome for a short but excruciating time.
Clearly some of the saints who are "saved by Jesus" (or else they could not be called saints ,) are not enjoying YET the overcoming trumpeted concerning those in 12:10,11.
Since Rev. 12:10,11 only refers to a portion of all the saints saved by Jesus, then WHO are they ?
KIngDavid,
You see right after we are told "THEM, and THEY" overcame Satan after the rapture of the man-child we are told saved brothers and sisters left on earth are BEING overcome as Antichrist makes war with them.
"And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them . . . ." (13:7)
Remember the casted down dragon was angry and went off to persecute the woman "who brought forth" the man-child. (12:14)
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, . . . " (12:17)
While he is making war, one portion has overcome. But over another portion of the total body of believers he has been granted permission to overcome them. (v.7) for another forty-two months.
I asked and will answer.
Since Rev. 12:10,11 only refers to a portion of all the saints saved by Jesus, then WHO are they ?
There is a woman and there is a man-child.
The woman is the weaker vessel and her man-child is the stronger portion within her.
Throughout the ages on earth the total body of God's people have travailed in prayer to bring forth a SRONGER component from within the total body. These are they who overcome.
To overcome through Christ is not to be super spiritual. It is to be normal in victory. It is not to rise ABOVE some standard. It is only to arise up TO the normal standard.
And a minority of deceased saints of God just before the great tribulation are resurrected and raptured as the STRONGER portion of the total body of the bright woman. Their rapture to heaven triggers the serving angels to drive down Satan from his position of going before God to accuse His people.
Those raptured to heaven rejoice. But to those who are left on earth there is a short time left for WOE to be with them.
"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them.
Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (12:12)
The dead overcomers are seen resurrected and raptured in chapter 12.
Those live at the time of this event or very close to it are seen raptured in chapter 14.
Chapter 12 emphases a more military overcoming.
Chapter 14 signifies a more overcoming for the Father's loving pleasure.
Chapter 12 is rapture for a strategic advantage in spiritual warfare over the earth.
Chapter 14 is rapture to satisfy the Father's pleasure and satisfaction in love.