Islam Is Right About Women

@philokalia said
Yes, completely.

I affirm the fact that there should be no women Priests or Bishops -- which is the only significant distinction that actually exists.

So no problems with 1 Timothy 2:8–14?

'Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.'

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Do you and they not have some lingua franca - like English - available to you? They are encouraging you to learn Arabic?

The post that was quoted here has been removed

So you are hoping to talk to Arabs who don't speak a language - like English - which you speak?

@fmf said
Is it because they have vaginas?

No, it has to do with fundamental differences in temperament that have huge influences on the behavior and attitudes of men and women -- something demonstrated across cultures and socieites.

In fact, these differences are so great that it appears to be possible for a person who is biologically a male or female to actually feel their temperament and personality completely represents the opposite gender, showing that the attitudes & temperaments do have some sort of inherent quality as divided by gender.

I assume you have a very boomer 1960s & 1970s perspective on this where the only things different about men and women are physical, right? What are your thoughts on it?

I think we should not sit and appeal to the sacred cows of our society but meet the challenge head on.

@philokalia said
No, it has to do with fundamental differences in temperament that have huge influences on the behavior and attitudes of men and women -- something demonstrated across cultures and socieites.

What is the "temperament" issue when it comes to teaching Christian doctrines or delivering a sermon?

@philokalia said
I assume you have a very boomer 1960s & 1970s perspective on this where the only things different about men and women are physical, right? What are your thoughts on it?

What are the non-physical differences you see in women that make you think they should be submissive and remain quiet in matters to do with religion?

@FMF it has to do with the whole leadership of the community because this is what applies concerning the role of the Priest.

Men, when they have families, are less required to dedicate great amounts of time to child rearing. Men also are more detached from their children than women, because of this and other psychological factors.

Priests are also routinely in difficult positions that require being uncompromising and domineering, a trait that is most often seen in cultures. There's plenty of reasons along those lines.

I've been kind enough to answer your questions, but I am curious, do you have any position on this?

What do you think the differences between male & female temperament are? Do you think they hold up across cultures?

@philokalia said
I've been kind enough to answer your questions, but I am curious, do you have any position on this?

Yes. I believe that women do not need to be submissive and remain quiet in matters to do with religion. I don't think "temperament" is relevant. I think things like child-rearing are a matter of time management and are not an impediment to proselytizing.

@philokalia said
What do you think the differences between male & female temperament are?

I can think of no differences related to temperament, in and of itself, that applies to or affects the propagation of religious belief.

@philokalia said
Priests are also routinely in difficult positions that require being uncompromising and domineering, a trait that is most often seen in cultures.

I have met and worked with plenty of women who were uncompromising and domineering.

If a woman - or a man, for that matter - wishes to be submissive and keep quiet, then that's fine.

I don't think a religious proscription of women NOT being submissive and NOT keeping quiet makes much sense.

Culture may create some 'facts on the ground' regarding the relative status or authority of women, but the notion that this should be underpinned by some sort of divine edict sounds very unconvincing to me.

@philokalia said
Men also are more detached from their children than women, because of this and other psychological factors.

Is "men being more detached from their children than women" supposed to be an attribute that makes men more credible in proselytizing? Sounds to me like you have added a tick in the CON column for men, and a tick in the PRO column for women.

@philokalia said
No, it has to do with fundamental differences in temperament that have huge influences on the behavior and attitudes of men and women -- something demonstrated across cultures and socieites.

Do you think women should also be excluded from proactivity and assertiveness in politics because of "fundamental differences in temperament"?

@fmf said
Yes. I believe that women do not need to be submissive and remain quiet in matters to do with religion. I don't think "temperament" is relevant. I think things like child-rearing are a matter of time management and are not an impediment to proselytizing.

This is actually broader than what is prescribed.

The concept applies to them not being given authority to teach within the Church as Priests.

And, for that matter, if we are speaking quite broadly, we all have an obligation to follow the hierarchy who has the authority to pronounce the proper interpretation and make calls in regards to how our religion should be offered to the world and the likes.

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Being a Priest requires going to hospitals at all times of the day and the night, and it requires teaching classes, giving up the totality of your weekend to the celebration of Vespers on Saturday and the hearing of confessions, as well as memorials for the dead, and on Sunday it requires the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, overlooking the lunch feast, teaching adult classes and educating catachumens...

In most parishes that have size, the Divine Liturgy is celebrated daily.

In places where there aren't enough people to celebrate it daily, it requires the Priest to generally work a second job to defray the costs for his parish and to create an income stream for himself.

Moreover, the Priest is generally expected to have a large family and to hold himself to a high standard. So, for instance, while birth control is not prohibited, it is generally considered that Priests should not use it. This is not even universal, but there has been the sayings of Saints like St. Maximos the Confessor which have stated that sex should not be for pleasure but for procreation in its ideal form.

While a Priest does not necessarily have to do this, it is what he ideally does, and if the Priest was female, it would be impossible for her to be a mother in these circumstances.