It's all a mystery really.....

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ill tell you whats a mystery Mr. Hamilton, how im gonna survive our chess game!

If you survive at all (i.e. win), it would be more than a mystery -it would be a miracle from the gods. 🙂

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
If you survive at all (i.e. win), it would be more than a mystery -it would be a miracle from the gods. 🙂

Lol, if i win then, you must declare that miracles happen, acknowledge that God exists, give up your atheistic tendencies and embrace theocracy! 😀

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, if i win then, you must declare that miracles happen, acknowledge that God exists, give up your atheistic tendencies and embrace theocracy! 😀

He did say 'gods'. Would it be OK if he decides to worship any set of gods of his choosing?

Originally posted by twhitehead
He did say 'gods'. Would it be OK if he decides to worship any set of gods of his choosing?

mmm, i dunno, depends on whether he attributes my miraculous victory to one or many gods. i expect, given that he is a poor atheist, it would be better to start with one God, learn the fundamentals and then progress, what do you think?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm, i dunno, depends on whether he attributes my miraculous victory to one or many gods. i expect, given that he is a poor atheist, it would be better to start with one God, learn the fundamentals and then progress, what do you think?

Far better to start with something like the Greek or Norse gods. Much more fun - and probably more suited to bettering your chess strategy too.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Far better to start with something like the Greek or Norse gods. Much more fun - and probably more suited to bettering your chess strategy too.

Lol, yes but they are a bit too human in nature, unless of course, fighting and feasting all day in Valhalla, the hall of the slain, to be attended upon by pretty maidens every day is your thing, mmmmm, come to think about it...!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, if i win then, you must declare that miracles happen, acknowledge that God exists, give up your atheistic tendencies and embrace theocracy! 😀

-sorry -I was joking 😀

Besides, even if I was serious, just as twhitehead said, I said “gods” and not “God”.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
-sorry -I was joking 😀

Besides, even if I was serious, just as twhitehead said, I said “gods” and not “God”.

I just hope that you have a sufficiently rational mind such that even if you did witness apparently miraculous events you would not pick the first religion to cross your mind as the best explanation. I for one see no good reason to attribute an unexplained event to God or gods simply based on:
1. you do not have an explanation.
2. you know someone who believes in an entity that causes events that don't fit with your own world view.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I just hope that you have a sufficiently rational mind such that even if you did witness apparently miraculous events you would not pick the first religion to cross your mind as the best explanation. I for one see no good reason to attribute an unexplained event to God or gods simply based on:
1. you do not have an explanation.
2. you know someone who believes in an entity that causes events that don't fit with your own world view.

…I just hope that you have a sufficiently rational mind such that even if you did witness apparently miraculous events you would not pick the first religion to cross your mind as the best explanation.
.…

don’t worry -even if I see what appears to be angels prancing around defying gravity in the air above me -I wouldn’t conclude that there is a “religious” explanation -I would go to a doctor.

…I for one see no good reason to attribute an unexplained event to God or gods simply based on:
1. you do not have an explanation.
2. you know someone who believes in an entity that causes events that don't fit with your own world view.
….

Agreed 🙂

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]So how DO you feel about the prospect of existence being inexplicable in any rational scientific way?

I don't even know what it means to say that "the prospect of existence [is] inexplicable in any rational scientific way". Is that supposed to be a faithful restatement of the proposition that there exists at least one brute fact? Maybe we are ...[text shortened]... efinition, have no explanation. Beyond that I am suspect of your interpretations.[/b]

I think brute facts, by definition, have no explanation. ----------------------------------lemon-------------------------------------------------

So if existence itself is a brute fact (in the sense that it just is and there is no explaining it) does that not intrigue you or engage you mentally in anyway at all?

Think about it for a minute. If existence (ie all that exists) is inexplicable and unfathomable does that not bring about any mental or emotional response? Why is my use of the word mystery so uncomfortable for you?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I simply find 'inexplicable mystery' to be the wrong words for 'does not have a cause' because that is all you really mean by them. You simply want to spice it up a little.

[b]In comparison you treat the idea that existence may be uncaused with a cavalier , hey ho attitude which betrays a lack of wonder at what this actually implies.
But we all ...[text shortened]... you in that it highlights the fact that if God exists he is at heart a 'brute fact'.[/b]

But we all seem to agree that it is a fairly trivial thing to deduce that there must exist some uncaused events (brute facts) and that all existence depends on them.------whitey----------------

For me the phrase "uncaused event" is clumsy because "event" suggests somehting that happens or a happening. We do not know of any proven uncaused events in existence. Uncaused cause seems more appropriate because an event is usually the result of another cause. A brute fact is unlikely to be an "event" but more likely to be a self sustaining independent thing. Usually "events" depend on other things.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I disagree. If science was able to prove that a given phenomena was a brute fact then it would be the ultimate truth (about that phenomena) and fully explained. Whether science is capable of identifying brute facts I do not know, but you have not shown any reason to think otherwise.

[b]This is where contemplation comes in. It's a different way of "unde ...[text shortened]... 'My God is irrational therefore all the logical problems fall away when he's involved'.

What do you mean by that? What is this 'contemplation' you talk of?----------------------whitey-------------------

I would have thought it was obvious. If the brute fact of existence cannot be explained , understood scientifically or rationally made sense of (ie how does it work etc) - then what else is there to do but to contemplate it? Brute facts cannot be picked apart rationally because they just ARE. Best just to contemplate.

Your mind is so programmed to try to understand rationally that you seem to have lost any sense of contemplation.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…But if it is uncaused then it's impossible to explain how or why existence exists , yes?
.…

Yes -because there is no “how or why existence exists” therefore nothing to explain and therefore no mystery -we have been over this ground before.


…Can you think of anything in the universe that has been fully understood or explained that ...[text shortened]... explained” -if there is no such thing there then there is nothing there to be “inexplicable”.

but, the fact remains, a PARTICULAR random quantum event can be “uncaused”.
----------------------------------hammy-----------------------------

Has this been proven then? If so how? I can provide arguments that might refute the so called "quantum vaccum" .

It also begs the question of how one can prove something is uncaused anyway. Isn't this an impossibility by definiton?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…But if it is uncaused then it's impossible to explain how or why existence exists , yes?
.…

Yes -because there is no “how or why existence exists” therefore nothing to explain and therefore no mystery -we have been over this ground before.


…Can you think of anything in the universe that has been fully understood or explained that ...[text shortened]... explained” -if there is no such thing there then there is nothing there to be “inexplicable”.

I just did! ------------------hammy--------------------

No you didn't!

There is no conclusive proof that particular quantum events are uncaused. Until there is I am rationally entitled to question such a claim as unlikely. As you Atheists are so fond of saying - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…But if it is uncaused then it's impossible to explain how or why existence exists , yes?
.…

Yes -because there is no “how or why existence exists” therefore nothing to explain and therefore no mystery -we have been over this ground before.


…Can you think of anything in the universe that has been fully understood or explained that ...[text shortened]... explained” -if there is no such thing there then there is nothing there to be “inexplicable”.

this proves by point -“incapable of being accounted for or explained” obviously implies that for something to be “inexplicable” then there has to be something there to be “accounted for or explained” -if there is no such thing there then there is nothing there to be “inexplicable”.
-------------hammy-------------------------

What garbage!

Of course there is such a thing - that thing is existence - if existence has no cause then it's impossible to explain how it exists or account for it. It (existence) is obviously then inexplicable ( impossible to explain).

It's not the cause of existence that is inexplicable - it's existence itself. You have jumped too far.

Think about it simply. What is the "thing" that I am saying is inexplicable? answer --- existence yes?

Ok , existence has no cause or explanation , yes?

Ok , now re-read the defintion

***** "incapable of being accounted for or explained” ******

Is existence capable of being explained or accounted for? --answer ---------------NO

Therefore existence is inexplicable. Yes? Where is your problem?

Am I not being logical enough?

You have confused yourself here in your rushed attempt to argue against my position.