1. Joined
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    04 Aug '11 11:34
    religion and how it makes people act basically, you can not be serious. condemn this, redemption that... eternal life in a fiery afterlife, angels and divine contraception.

    comments like this

    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."

    it really is quite sad if you think about it, not what people believe. believe in whatever you want, however ridiculous in the eyes of some people for all i care just don't think you're anymore of a person for believing in these things. if we all live our lives in peace and harmony does it really matter if one person believes in god and all of his stories and other does not? judging perfectly nice people who have conducted themselves gracefully throughout their lives and achieved many impressive accomplishments solely on the fact that they in some peoples eyes lack or have a certain belief system is ridiculous.
  2. Joined
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    04 Aug '11 16:296 edits
    Originally posted by trev33
    religion and how it makes people act basically, you can not be serious. condemn this, redemption that... eternal life in a fiery afterlife, angels and divine contraception.

    comments like this

    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."

    it really is quite sad if you think about it, not what people bel the fact that they in some peoples eyes lack or have a certain belief system is ridiculous.
    This question hinges on the notion that a belief system does not really matter. After all, how will what you believe change the way the world is?

    To begin with, belief is something that we cannot really prove, rather, it is simpy extrapolations upon what seems reasonable to us based upon what we do know. Why is this important? It is important so that we can make sense of the world. For example, we know that CO2 in the atmosphere can produce whats known as a "green house effect". We then extrapolate that all carbon emissions will contribute to this "green house effect" and cause the planet potential harm. Is this necessarily true? No, rather, it is simply an extrapolation.

    However, those that believe this extrapolation may alter their lives. They may stop driving SUV's and stop fying on planes as much as possible. It may cause you to align yourself politically with people who may govern over you producing secondary consequences for your political alliances, depending on how they wish to govern. In fact, these same people who govern over you may start World War 3 and end up destroying all life on the planet. So as we can see, one simple belief may have huge consequences, not just in your own life, but also in the life of others.

    So are belief systems "bad"? No, they are necessary in order to assign meaning and value to our lives. For example, the knowledge that carbon emissions has the potential to warm the planet is meaningless. It is only meaningful if you assign this fact to be either "bad", "good", or indifferent. You have chosen to assign it as "bad" for the most part, and take action accordingly. So without this belief, you take no action. In fact, all the actions you take today are based upon what you believe is "best" for you.

    And so it goes for the person of faith, their faith is not simply a belief that God exists, rather, it is what action we take believing that God exists that shapes us. As the Bible rightly points out, faith without action is not faith at all. Those that truly believe God exists will try to "exercise" their faith through prayer and study and seeking God's will etc. And once we give God consent to work in our lives by seeking his will he can work through us and change, not just our own lives, but those around us.

    You may scoff at such notions but the results of such faith can be seen in a myriad of examples, such as Mother Theresa and Christ himself. These people are movers and shakers who helped change the world even though neither had a penny to their names. Their only power and historical legacy lie only in their "beliefs".
  3. Standard memberblack beetle
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    04 Aug '11 18:22
    Originally posted by trev33
    religion and how it makes people act basically, you can not be serious. condemn this, redemption that... eternal life in a fiery afterlife, angels and divine contraception.

    comments like this

    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."

    it really is quite sad if you think about it, not what people bel ...[text shortened]... the fact that they in some peoples eyes lack or have a certain belief system is ridiculous.
    How clear and refreshing. Rec'd. But this is not enough;
    I know you are a chef, so this easy one is from me to you, trev33:



    Get
    1 cup (packed) fresh mint leaves, coarsely chopped
    ¾ cup of orange juice
    ½ packed golden brown sugar
    ¼ cup dry Sherry
    ¼ cup apple cider vinegar
    3 garlic cloves, chopped
    1 tablespoon finely grated orange peel
    1 tablespoon chopped peeled fresh ginger
    2 teaspoons Sansho peppercorns
    1 teaspoon Asian sesame oil
    1 teaspoon soy sauce
    1 teaspoon pink peppercorns, crushed

    Combine all ingredients in medium bowl for marinade.
    From 2 ½ half pounds of untrimmed leg of lamb, get 1 ½ pounds 1in cubes trimmed leg of lamb. Thread lamb onto metal skewers, place skewers in a 13x9x2in glass baking dish, pour marinade over, cover with plastic wrap and chill overnight.
    Transfer lamb skewers to baking sheet, pour marinade into small saucepan.
    Prepare bbq with fine coal, medium-high heat. Sprinkle lamb with salt and pepper, grill according to your taste, turning (medium-rare in about 8min). Transfer to platter.
    Boil marinade 5min. Strain, spoon over lamb and serve.
    The food is enough for 4-6 persons. Lively up your precious guests and yourself by (having handy a bucket of hand-carved ice and) passing them a rich glass of Suntory on ice while the lamb is on fire. And have a good time
    😵
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    05 Aug '11 14:00
    Originally posted by trev33
    religion and how it makes people act basically, you can not be serious. condemn this, redemption that... eternal life in a fiery afterlife, angels and divine contraception.

    comments like this

    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."

    it really is quite sad if you think about it, not what people bel ...[text shortened]... the fact that they in some peoples eyes lack or have a certain belief system is ridiculous.
    Christians often "pester" the people who are important to them about accepting Jesus as their Savior because they love these people and want to see them have eternal life also. They believe this life is only a fraction of what is meant by "eternal life", and what kind of friend would they be to these people if they did not at least try to sway them to believe in God and His message? The kind of life atheists lead now and today means absolutely nothing if they lose the promise of eternal life (what fraction of eternal is 70 years? miniscule).

    You're asking Christians to *stop bothering* you. Well, perhaps in exchange you could realize that they only have your best interests at heart. You believe there is nothing after this life. Why can't you understand that Christians' belief that there is much much more after this life *is just as valid*? You ask them to respect your views? Maybe you can start by respecting theirs. The very fact that you consider their views "a big joke", "sad", "not serious", "ridiculous" or "stories" indicates that you simply don't respect their views. How can you seriously expect them to respect yours?
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    05 Aug '11 17:291 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Christians often "pester" the people who are important to them about accepting Jesus as their Savior because they love these people and want to see them have eternal life also. They believe this life is only a fraction of what is meant by "eternal life", and what kind of friend would they be to these people if they did not at least try to sway them to beli on't respect their views. How can you seriously expect them to respect yours?
    The problem with that 'they just have your best interest at heart' is they are duped into believing they are actually doing good. What they are doing is following the dictates of the leaders, that is, add to the congregation. It has nothing to do with salvation. The people on the streets have good intentions of course, I have no gripe with them, I am talking about the motivation of the leaders whom I characterize as simple power base builders and nothing more.
  6. Cape Town
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    05 Aug '11 17:40
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    They believe this life is only a fraction of what is meant by "eternal life", and what kind of friend would they be to these people if they did not at least try to sway them to believe in God and His message? The kind of life atheists lead now and today means absolutely nothing if they lose the promise of eternal life (what fraction of eternal is 70 years? miniscule).
    Yet if I asked you some straight forward questions about what this eternal 'life' consists of, you would leave the thread. You are not trying to convert others because you want to help them, you want to convert them because you fear you are wrong and need company. ie you feel if you can convince others that it is true then it will be more likely to be true or that you won't feel so guilty about believing a lie.
  7. Joined
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    05 Aug '11 17:48
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Christians often "pester" the people who are important to them about accepting Jesus as their Savior because they love these people and want to see them have eternal life also. They believe this life is only a fraction of what is meant by "eternal life", and what kind of friend would they be to these people if they did not at least try to sway them to beli ...[text shortened]... on't respect their views. How can you seriously expect them to respect yours?
    you're misquoting me.

    "believe in whatever you want, however ridiculous in the eyes of some people"

    i didn't call christianity 'ridiculous' here, the same could be said about what atheists believe. i do think parts of it are ridiculous but that's not what i was saying here.

    "sad" this is what i was calling said, someone of a certain faith totally squashing someones impressive accomplishments in life as

    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."

    this view is sad in my eyes. the fact that you (not you, you) can call someones life meaningless, regardless of what they have achieved just because they lack a certain faith is pathetic. there's one thing 'wanting someone to have eternal life' but this is just an attack on someone solely for their lack of belief, there's no conversion attempt here. this is also where the 'joke' and 'not serious' quotes came from.

    as for "stories"... some stories are true, some are false. the bible is full of stories. you might think most are true, i might think most are false, all of them are stories though.

    i'm not asking christans to 'stop bothering me' here, i've come to realize that that isn't possible, that's not what this thread is about. if they really are trying to do as you say and show me the enlightenment of eternal life i can understand that, if that's what they believe and are trying to stare, great. i'm not going to change my views but i've stopped blaming them for trying.

    this thread was about something else. mainly this quote
    "all he has done is for nothing if he never accepts Jesus (Yahshua) as his lord and savior."
    it's the clearest anyone has ever put it for me that i can remember and i'm going to post a quote of my post in response -

    "it really is quite sad if you think about it, not what people believe. believe in whatever you want, however ridiculous in the eyes of some people for all i care just don't think you're anymore of a person for believing in these things. if we all live our lives in peace and harmony does it really matter if one person believes in god and all of his stories and other does not? judging perfectly nice people who have conducted themselves gracefully throughout their lives and achieved many impressive accomplishments solely on the fact that they in some peoples eyes lack or have a certain belief system is ridiculous."

    understand what i was saying now? i'm not attacking your religion, i'm attacking hopefully a minority of people within christianity and other religions who seem to believe they're better than most people just for believing in something that the others do not.

    if there is a god and there is an eternal afterlife or reincarnation, or whatever, i'd hope that people will be judged on what they have achieved, how they respected others and conducted themselves while they were here on earth, not if they believed in something or not.
  8. Standard memberSoothfast
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    05 Aug '11 17:58
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Christians often "pester" the people who are important to them about accepting Jesus as their Savior because they love these people and want to see them have eternal life also.
    Maybe Christians should start asking themselves what the worth of a god is who would damn good people whom they love simply because they can't bring themselves, based on the evidence, to "believe" in Jesus.
  9. Joined
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    05 Aug '11 18:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    This question hinges on the notion that a belief system does not really matter. After all, how will what you believe change the way the world is?

    To begin with, belief is something that we cannot really prove, rather, it is simpy extrapolations upon what seems reasonable to us based upon what we do know. Why is this important? It is important so that w ...[text shortened]... names. Their only power and historical legacy lie only in their "beliefs".
    To begin with, belief is something that we cannot really prove, rather, it is simpy extrapolations upon what seems reasonable to us based upon what we do know. Why is this important? It is important so that we can make sense of the world. For example, we know that CO2 in the atmosphere can produce whats known as a "green house effect". We then extrapolate that all carbon emissions will contribute to this "green house effect" and cause the planet potential harm. Is this necessarily true? No, rather, it is simply an extrapolation.

    it's a fact that more and more chemicals are being released into the atmosphere capable of damaging the ozone layer and manipulating the greenhouse effect. it's also a fact that in spring very year a hole opens in the ozone layer over the antarctic.

    However, those that believe this extrapolation may alter their lives. They may stop driving SUV's and stop fying on planes as much as possible. It may cause you to align yourself politically with people who may govern over you producing secondary consequences for your political alliances, depending on how they wish to govern. In fact, these same people who govern over you may start World War 3 and end up destroying all life on the planet. So as we can see, one simple belief may have huge consequences, not just in your own life, but also in the life of others.

    and god believing nut-jobs (aka g w bush) might get elected and almost start a ww3. the greenhouse effect is not a 'faith', it's a fact... whether you think it's being manipulated by man or not is another debate but it is a fact. your faith is exactly that, a faith.
  10. Joined
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    05 Aug '11 18:47
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Christians often "pester" the people who are important to them about accepting Jesus as their Savior because they love these people and want to see them have eternal life also. They believe this life is only a fraction of what is meant by "eternal life", and what kind of friend would they be to these people if they did not at least try to sway them to beli ...[text shortened]... on't respect their views. How can you seriously expect them to respect yours?
    Maybe we need some positive examples of respectful behavior, not just negative examples of disrespectful behavior. Imagine a stranger rings the doorbell of a non-theist, and the person has said just enough to show that they are there to evangelize for Christ.

    What would you count as a respectful "turn down" that the evangelist should show respect for, by leaving the premises without further evangelizing?

    How about, "I'm not interested in discussing this with you? But have a good day." and stepping back as if to start closing the door. And if they continue, saying, "No really, good day now," while closing the door.

    It would however be acceptable (to be) for the evangelist to offer some literature, and for the non-theist to accept it or simply can "No thanks" and have this be accepted.

    Do you know if churches teach this sort of thing to those who want to evangelize door to door?
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '11 21:211 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    Maybe we need some positive examples of respectful behavior, not just negative examples of disrespectful behavior. Imagine a stranger rings the doorbell of a non-theist, and the person has said just enough to show that they are there to evangelize for Christ.

    What would you count as a respectful "turn down" that the evangelist should show respect for, by le know if churches teach this sort of thing to those who want to evangelize door to door?
    I think these things should be enough, yes. Christ said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock". You are given Free Will to invite Him in, or turn Him away. Simple as that. He and I are not interested in conversion at the end of a fist.

    I doubt if any of the so-called "evangelical churches" teach this concept you describe.
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '11 21:28
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Maybe Christians should start asking themselves what the worth of a god is who would damn good people whom they love simply because they can't bring themselves, based on the evidence, to "believe" in Jesus.
    Interesting that you say this. Many Christians can't understand how they (meaning atheists) can't bring themselves, based on the evidence, to "believe" in Jesus.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '11 21:43
    Originally posted by trev33
    you're misquoting me.

    "believe in whatever you want, however ridiculous in the eyes of some people"

    i didn't call christianity 'ridiculous' here, the same could be said about what atheists believe. i do think parts of it are ridiculous but that's not what i was saying here.

    "sad" this is what i was calling said, someone of a certain faith totally ...[text shortened]... re on earth, not if they believed in something or not.
    I'm not gonna sit here and say you don't have a point. Jesus was fully behind the original "hate the sin, love the sinner" concept. But most Christian churches, like the Roman Catholic Church, call your rejection of God a sin, and as such, they uphold that yes, men will be judged by their acceptance or rejection of God. Now I also believe that Works is the flip side of Faith, and so a man's Works is only half the equation. I'm almost convinced a man needs both to make the cut. But I also believe Faith is worth more than Works.
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '11 21:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yet if I asked you some straight forward questions about what this eternal 'life' consists of, you would leave the thread. You are not trying to convert others because you want to help them, you want to convert them because you fear you are wrong and need company. ie you feel if you can convince others that it is true then it will be more likely to be true or that you won't feel so guilty about believing a lie.
    No, I wouldn't. I'll tell you to your face that I don't know exactly what this "eternal life" consists of. But just how confusing is "eternal" + "life"?

    The rest of your post seems an ill-concealed rant. "Or that you won't feel guilty about believing a lie"? What? Do you think like this? Really?
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Aug '11 21:58
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The problem with that 'they just have your best interest at heart' is they are duped into believing they are actually doing good. What they are doing is following the dictates of the leaders, that is, add to the congregation. It has nothing to do with salvation. The people on the streets have good intentions of course, I have no gripe with them, I am talkin ...[text shortened]... motivation of the leaders whom I characterize as simple power base builders and nothing more.
    Ok, I can understand your main beef being with the leaders, and not entirely unfounded, I must say. But this hardly means "they [meaning the average christian-on-the-street] are duped into believing they are actually doing good". Duped? The Christian foot-soldier believes in what he's doing, and yes, believe it or not, it does have everything to do with salvation. I think you're over-generalizing here.
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