Jacob's Ladder

The backround to Jacob's vision is that he is running away, lonely and frightened from the anger of his brother Esau. Jacob had cheated Esau out of his "birthright" which mean special blessings and privileges associated with being the firstborn son.

Jacob was struggling in womb of Rebecca with his twin brother Esau. It seems that Jacob was attempting to come out of the mother first. But Esau came out first with Jacob firmly holding on to Esau's heel. Jacob was a heel holding competitive trickster supplanting other people to gain advantage over them. He was this way from birth.

His father Isaac favored his brother Esau. But Rebecca the mother favored Jacob.

Jacob and his mother conspired to deceive Isaac into blessing Jacob instead of Esau the firstborn, whose entitlement was to receive the father's blessing. This caused Esau, who had previously been tricked to sell his birthright to Jacob, to be furious with his brother. He sought to kill Jacob for his tricks.

Rebecca convinced Jacob to run away to her brother Laban. And alone, wondering (he never again saw his dear mother) Jacob in one lonely night as a fugitive has this wonderful dream.

Originally posted by divegeester
As you know I don't believe your doctrine of the trinity so I'm afraid that after genuinely capturing my interest your doctrinal slant has forced me out of what could have been an excellent topic.

"As you know I don't believe your doctrine of the trinity..." dive, may I ask which of its three members you reject?

Originally posted by divegeester
I see the ladder as a typification of Jesus btw.

I thought you said you were forced out? 😛 😉

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob speak of the Triune God's operation to carry out His purpose in man.

Abraham speaks of the Father.
Isaac speaks of the Son.

Now it may not be easy to view Abraham as the Father, except his name was changed from Abram - "exalted father" to Abraham - "father of many nations". He is really the source of this great triad of three patriarchs.

Genesis 17:5 - "Your name shall no longer be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations."

But it should be easier to see in Genesis 22 when God finally commands Abraham to offer up his only son Issac.

Genesis 22:1-2 - "Now after these things God tested Abraham and said to him, Abraham. And he said, Here I am. And He said, Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Abraham the father and Isaac his only and beloved son walk together up to the place where Isaac is to be sacrificed. If you cannot see the Father and the Son depicted in this, it is unusual.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life." (John 3:16)

We have to remember that Isaac was not a little boy at this time. He was certainly old enough to resist. He probably could have easily overpowered his dad and escaped. But reading the whole account of Genesis 22 we can see that the obedience son Isaac went willingly. And Abraham believed that God would raise the sacrificed son up again from the dead.

We also see that Isaac inherited everything from his father Abraham -
And all that the Son has was from the Father -

"All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mone and will declare it to you." (John 16:15)


Anyway - Abraham and Isaac surely represent the Father and the Son of the Trinity.

What about Jacob? As I said the longest biography in Genesis is dedicated to the life of this supplanting, heal holding tricksterJacob. But the long account of his life reveals how God transformed him from a supplanter to a prince of God, from Jacob to Israel. Jacob then stands for the transformation work of the Third Person of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit.

All Jacob's troubles, trials, misfortunes, good fortunes, circumstances and all his surroundings were used by God to shape, mold, transform him into Israel. The transforming work of the Holy Spirit is seen in the life of Jacob.

Latter I'll speak of one more person we have to consider in conjunction with Jacob - Joseph his son.

So the Triune God is certainly depicted in the lives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"As you know I don't believe your doctrine of the trinity..." dive, may I ask which of its three members you reject?

None, there aren't three persons/people/members.

Hear oh Israel The Lord your God is ONE.

Originally posted by josephw
I thought you said you were forced out? 😛 😉

Of the main drag of sonship's OP I am. I don't believe in a "triune" God, I believe it's a pagan concept that is unsupportable in scripture. Despite our lack of understanding of how Jesus prayed to the father, or floated down as a dove etc etc...

Hear oh Israel The Lord your God is ONE. Simples.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob speak of the Triune God's operation to carry out His purpose in man.

Abraham speaks of the Father.
Isaac speaks of the Son.

Now it may not be easy to view Abraham as the Father, except his name was changed from Abram - "exalted father" to Abraham - "father of many nations". He is really th ...[text shortened]... .

So the Triune God is certainly depicted in the lives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.[/b]

I think 1+1=4.
I suspect 2+2=5
Maybe 3+3=10.
Therefore they all equal 19.
Wow. I'm brilliant !

Originally posted by divegeester
None, there aren't three persons/people/members.

Hear oh Israel The Lord your God is ONE.

dive, the theological word 'Trinity' designates God as one in essence with three coequal, coinfinite and coeternal persons: God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit. They each share identical individual qualities or characteristics [the attributes of God]. This Divine Essence of God includes sovereignty, righteousness, justice, love, eternal life, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, immutability and veracity. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-16

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
dive, the theological word 'Trinity' designates God as one in essence with three coequal, coinfinite and coeternal persons: God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit. They each share identical individual qualities or characteristics [the attributes of God]. This Divine Essence of God includes sovereignty, righteousness, justice, love, ...[text shortened]... y born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-16

Coequal say man.
God is the head of Christ says the bible.
I rather believe the Bible.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
dive, the theological word 'Trinity' designates God as one in essence with three coequal, coinfinite and coeternal persons: God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit. They each share identical individual qualities or characteristics [the attributes of God]. This Divine Essence of God includes sovereignty, righteousness, justice, love, ...[text shortened]... y born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-16

I know what the word trinity means. Unfortunately for trinitarians it's not in the bible anywhere.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Coequal say man.
God is the head of Christ says the bible.
I rather believe the Bible.

Rajk, each member is identified as God in scripture: "The Father is God in John 6:27; Rom 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2.
Jesus Christ is God in John 1:1, 18; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13. The Holy Spirit is God in Acts 5:3-4." (Rickard)

Originally posted by divegeester
I know what the word trinity means. Unfortunately for trinitarians it's not in the bible anywhere.

"Trinity is not a term found in the Bible, but is used in theology to identify the God of the Bible. In essence it means 3 in one. It comes from the terms “Tri” and “Unity” for Trinity. Scriptures that identify the Father, Son and Spirit as members of the Trinity include, Mat 3:16-17; 28:19; John 14:16-17; 1 Cor 12:4-6 and Eph 4:4-6 where Spirit = God the Holy Spirit, Lord = God the Son, God = God the Father, 2 Cor 13:14. Mat 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Foundational Doctrines Part 1 The Doctrine of God. Pastor/Teacher, Jim Rickard, Friday, January 31, 2014) www.GraceDoctrine.org

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Rajk, each member is identified as God in scripture: "The Father is God in John 6:27; Rom 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2.
Jesus Christ is God in John 1:1, 18; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13. The Holy Spirit is God in Acts 5:3-4." (Rickard)

Did the bible not also say that God is the head of Christ?
So clearly they are both God, but not equal.
Is there some part of the Bible they are equal?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Coequal say man.
God is the head of Christ says the bible.
I rather believe the Bible.

Is the issue one that you will likely lose your salvation over ???

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Is the issue one that you will likely lose your salvation over ???

I would say no.
But I have heard others say yes.