Jaywill and Rajk999's discussion

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did Christ say any of this?

Yes, I can find it. But before I labor to do this hear me and hear me well.

Romans, Acts, First Corinthians, Second Thessalonians, First and Second Peter, James, Galatians, First John, Colossians, Philppians, and all of the other New Testament books are still the speaking of Jesus Christ.

Don't think that the speaking of Jesus Christ is just the red colored letters in your four Gospels. Christ continues His teaching through the apostles.

And MOST of the people I come across who think only the red letters in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the words of Jesus don't even accept all of the red letters either. Often they rise up to exclude the Gospel of John.

So don't think you will impress me by demanding that I show you "where did Jesus say that.?"

The whole Bible has the speaking of Jesus in that Jesus is God.

Originally posted by jaywill
(Sorry for my sarcasm. It was not called for.)

Can a born person go back and be unborn?

A [b]born again person cannot be unborn again.

He may backslide. He may not be on good speaking terms with his Father. But he can never undue the birth relationship.

Now you can go believe what you want to. If you ask me, that is what I see the Bible revealing.[/b]

Your sarcasm does not bother me.
Funny how you are unable to answer a simple question. You must have been a very annoying student in school.
Did you answer the question ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Yes, I can find it. But before I labor to do this hear me and hear me well.

[b]Romans, Acts, First Corinthians, Second Thessalonians, First and Second Peter, James, Galatians, First John, Colossians, Philppians, and all of the other New Testament books are still the speaking of Jesus Christ.

Don't think that the speaking of Jesus Christ is jus ...[text shortened]... did Jesus say that.?"

The whole Bible has the speaking of Jesus in that Jesus is God.[/b]

So Jesus did not say those things. I thought so.

God is God. He is the father of Jesus.
Jesus is Jesus. He is the son of God.
They are 2 separate entities.
The Bible is clear on that.

Originally posted by jaywill
Yes, I can find it. But before I labor to do this hear me and hear me well.

[b]Romans, Acts, First Corinthians, Second Thessalonians, First and Second Peter, James, Galatians, First John, Colossians, Philppians, and all of the other New Testament books are still the speaking of Jesus Christ.

Don't think that the speaking of Jesus Christ is jus did Jesus say that.?"

The whole Bible has the speaking of Jesus in that Jesus is God.[/b]

So Jay, PB seems to think that there are several types of 'born-again'
There is

Born again - Regular (I imagine)
Truly born again. - Super variety
Slightly born again - Defective ?
Not-so-truly born again. - Made in China ? .... 😀

So all of these born again types, get salvation no matter what?
All they say is "I accept Jesus as my personal savious', and get dunked into the water and ....BOOM ! free salvation !

Salvation on sale ! Nice scam. Your churches must be rich !

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did Christ say any of this?

Rakj999's challenge cannot be addressed in fewer words. Those too lazy to get a detailed answer will not benefit from this response to Rakj999.

Regeneration of the spirit - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)


The first instance of Spirit contains a captital S in the English translation because the translators understand this to refer to the Holy Spirit. "That which is born of the Spirit ...."

The second instance of spirit is provided a small letter s. This is because the translators rightly understand that it must refer to the human spirit - " ... born of the Spirit is spirit"

Therefore John 3:6 speaks of the regeneration of the human (small s) spirit by means of and through the (capital S) Holy Spirit of God.

2.) Now we come to the transformation of the soul. Where did Jesus speak of this?

"He who loves his soul-life loses it; and he who hates his soul-life in this world shall keep it unto eternal life." (John 12:25)

"He who finds his soul-life shall lose it, and he who loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matt. 10:39)

"For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matt. 16:25)

See also Luke 9:24; Mark 8:35; Luke 17:33.

All these passages about the saving or the salvation of the soul refer to a life long process of denying one's self love in order to follow Jesus. This is a transformation and salvation of the soul.

The translators of the RcV have rendered the Greek word SOUL-LIFE for it is the Greek word that can be alternatively translated as "life" or "self" - PSUCHE

This is the base of our English word Pscychology or the study of the PSUCHE the SOUL or the SELF or the PSYCHE?

We have now the regeneration salvation of the spirit from John and the transformation salvation of the human soul from all four Gospels.

Now we must find the transfiguration of the body salvation.

This is what the Lord Jesus went through Himself on the Mount of transfiguration.

"And after six days Jesus took with HIm Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain. And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and HIs garments became as white as the light." (Matt. 17:1,2)

The previous passage in chapter 16:28 proves that this transfiguration of Christ was a preview of the coming of Christ in His kingdom:

"Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here who shall by no menas taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28)

This is a preview of Christ's coming kingdom in which not only He is transfigured in His body, but also His overcoming believers will also be transfigured in their bodies as well:

"Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt. 13:43)

The concealed divine life within both the Lord Jesus and His saved will permeate their souls, saturate their beings and shine out of their physical bodies in the kingdom. This will be the transfiguration of the body.

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven." (Matt.22:30)

Obviously this speaks of a divine alteration of the human physical body to a body of divine glory.

So we have Jesus speaking of the regeneration of the spirit, the transformation of the soul, and the transfiguration of the body.



[b]"

Originally posted by jaywill
Rakj999's challenge cannot be addressed in fewer words. Those too lazy to get a detailed answer will not benefit from this response to Rakj999.

Regeneration of the spirit - [b]"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)


The first instance of Spirit contains a captital S in the English on of the soul, and the transfiguration of the body.



"[/b]

Lets just deal with this regeneration issue.

Christ said:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

You reworded that to say :
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Holy Spirit is human spirit." (per Jaywill)

And you concluded : "Therefore John speaks of the regeneration of the human spirit by means of and through the Holy Spirit of God. "

So my simple question is Why did you add the word 'regeneration'?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Lets just deal with this regeneration issue.

Christ said:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

You reworded that to say :
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Holy Spirit is human spirit." (per Jaywill)

And you concluded : "Therefore John spea ...[text shortened]... ly Spirit of God. "

So my simple question is Why did you add the word 'regeneration'?

========================================

Lets just deal with this regeneration issue.

Christ said:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

You reworded that to say :
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Holy Spirit is human spirit." (per Jaywill)

==========================================

I could not find the quotation above. If you want to say that I EXPLAINED that the Spirit in John 3:6 is the Holy Spirit, yes I agree that I taught that.

So what? Besides the Holy Spirit is there another divine Spirit in the Bible that gives life ? Where ?

Be careful giving the appearance of a quotation which you cannot find.

So while you criticize me for saying that the Father and the Son are God you believe that there are TWO divine Spirits in the Bible.

Come on Rakj999.

=======================================
And you concluded : "Therefore John speaks of the regeneration of the human spirit by means of and through the Holy Spirit of God. "

So my simple question is Why did you add the word 'regeneration'?
==============================================

In the New Testament, in every instance that I can think of at them moment except two, regeneration means to event of being reborn - born again - born from above.

There two exceptions where the English regeneration refers to something else.

In this discussion REGENERATION = BORN AGAIN.

Re-GENE-rate. To implant a new "gene" so to speak. To give a new "sperm seed" if you can handle that. To re-birth to cause to be re-born - spiritually.

You didn't know that regeneration means that ?

You have many happy years of Bible study ahead of you, hopefully.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]========================================

Lets just deal with this regeneration issue.

Christ said:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

You reworded that to say :
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Holy Spirit is human spirit." (per Ja means that ?

You have many happy years of Bible study ahead of you, hopefully.[/b]

Goodness me, cant you be brief and cool the stupid talk?

There is only one place where the word regeneration is used by Christ and its :
MT 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Thats the kingdom Christ is referring to. Christ used the word REGENERATION to mean HIS COMING KINGDOM.

So lets follow what you did. You took a verse from John, added the word regeneration and further went on to say this :

Regeneration - is the salvation of the human spirit.
Therefore, I have been saved.

I will repeat your steps:
1. A man is born again - meaning baptised
2. He is regenerated
3. He is saved there and then.
4. He cannot loose his salvation.

And the only clear statement from the Bible is #1.
2,3, and 4 are all added by you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Goodness me, cant you be brief and cool the stupid talk?

There is only one place where the word regeneration is used by Christ and its :
MT 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the ...[text shortened]... lvation.

And the only clear statement from the Bible is #1.
2,3, and 4 are all added by you.

RAJK999,

===============================
Goodness me, cant you be brief and cool the stupid talk?
====================================

All questions cannot be answered in 25 words or less. Stop hiding your ignorance behind phrases like "stupid talk".


========================================
There is only one place where the word regeneration is used by Christ and its :

MT 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
==========================================

1.) I just finished telling you that there were two exceptions I knew of where regeneration refered to something else.

Matt, 19:28 is one of them.

2.) The FACT of regeneration is mentioned in John 3:6. It is not necessary that I find Jesus saying "Trinity" or "Regeneration" specifically. What I look for is the fact, the equivalent teaching.

For example: Jesus does not mentione the word "rapture". The teaching of such an event is mentioned nonetheless.

Jesus does not mentione "foot washing". The fact of foot washing is there in His teaching.

Jesus does not mention the word "overcomer". He does say "He who overcomes" so the FACT of the matter is there.

I reject completely that because Jesus did not use a word that we translate into regeneration in John 3:6 that he is not talking about the fact of regeneration.

DO NOT SAY THIS IS TOO MUCH TO READ.


===================================
Thats the kingdom Christ is referring to. Christ used the word REGENERATION to mean HIS COMING KINGDOM.
=========================================

In the particular instance you quoted I agree.

The FACT of regeneration of the human spirit is in John 3:6

Now let me say this. IF YOU are not going to READ what I WRITE because you are too lazy, then I will not waste time to prove with careful arguments my point.

YOU decide if you want to continue talking with me then.

==========================================
So lets follow what you did. You took a verse from John, added the word regeneration and further went on to say this :
========================================

My point stands. John 3:6 talks about the regeneration of the human spirit.

You lose the case.

I am not going to arrange careful replies to you if you are not going to read them. I need a yes or a no on that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would like to see an answer to Snowinscotland's question please.

Also is there something called truly born again and
no-so-truly born again ? If so please explain what happens to such persons.

There is no not-so-truly born again. Those who claim to be born again and do not desire to do the Lord's work are most likely not born again, or if they are, they have not learned what the Lord will have them to learn in time. There are some who claim to be and refuse to do anything for the Lord, these are not born again. There are also some who are deceived into believing they are born again but do not have to do anything, unless these people are eventually given understanding and desire to do works without expecting merit then they too are not born again. And there are some who believe that doing works will get them salvation, these people are also deceived by what they are taught and unless their eyes are eventually be opened to this lie they are not born again. Those who do works to gain their salvation are doing it in vain, they want the credit for making themselves saved through something they did or do and this takes away the credit that belongs to Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So there is no difference, is there?

Once you are born again you
1. are saved
2. are sure of salvation
3. cannot loose your salvation.

Correct ?

LOL, you didn't read my post correctly, didn't want to understand it, or you are just trying to push for something to argue about.

Just because someone is saved, don't mean they are sure of their salvation. They may not know it yet. A babe in Christ may not know how to be sure. And also, some believe they are saved and are deceived into 'thinking' they are sure of their salvation. They do not study their Bible to see, but rather trust what their pastor has taught them. So you see, being sure of salvation is not the same as being born again.

And also, not loosing your salvation is not something YOU do but rather what the LORD does. You can not loose your salvation because the Lord keeps you, not by your own works.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So Jay, PB seems to think that there are several types of 'born-again'
There is

Born again - Regular (I imagine)
Truly born again. - Super variety
Slightly born again - Defective ?
Not-so-truly born again. - Made in China ? .... 😀

So all of these born again types, get salvation no matter what?
All they say is "I accept Jesus as my person ...[text shortened]... ....BOOM ! free salvation !

Salvation on sale ! Nice scam. Your churches must be rich !

NO Rajk999, I do not think there are several types of 'born-again'. There is only one! All others are only what man believes, not truth. That is why I use the phrase 'truly born again'. This is referring to actually being born again. YOU are the one who came up with the 'slightly born again', and 'not-so-truly born again' phrases. When I say 'born again' or 'truly born again' I am meaning the same thing. The phrase 'truly born again' that I use is trying to show that their are many out there that say they are born again and are not. There are in no way any varieties of born again. If you would read any of my post correctly without trying to find something to argue about, you would see that.

I would like to ask though, is that the only thing in my post that you had a problem with? If so, then you must be trying to have something to argue about, otherwise you wouldn't have stooped to the level of nit picking at a phrase that anyone can obviously see what I ment by it.

Originally posted by pritybetta
There is no not-so-truly born again. Those who claim to be born again and do not desire to do the Lord's work are most likely not born again, or if they are, they have not learned what the Lord will have them to learn in time. There are some who claim to be and refuse to do anything for the Lord, these are not born again. There are also some who are decei ...[text shortened]... s saved through something they did or do and this takes away the credit that belongs to Christ.

So in a nutshell, you dont have a clue whether or not someone is born again, do you? I mean Christians are baptised into Christ but its only Christ that have the all-knowing ability to look into someone's heart and mind and see if that baptism has made them into a new person spiritually .. according to Jaywill .. regenerated. You dont know that. I dont know that. Jaywill doesnt know that. Nobody knows until judgement day. Is that correct ?

Originally posted by pritybetta
NO Rajk999, I do not think there are several types of 'born-again'. There is only one! All others are only what man believes, not truth. That is why I use the phrase 'truly born again'. This is referring to actually being born again. YOU are the one who came up with the 'slightly born again', and 'not-so-truly born again' phrases. When I say 'born again' level of nit picking at a phrase that anyone can obviously see what I ment by it.

I was just making fun on the fact that you have several classifications of "born again". You started it with Truly born again. The Bible speaks only of "born again". There is no such thing as truly born again. Its either you are born again or you are not.

Originally posted by pritybetta
...Just because someone is saved, don't mean they are sure of their salvation..

So you disagree here with Epiphinehas ?
I asked the question in the thread "My Briefest Responses" about this same issue. Here it is :

QUESTION :
..do you also agree with these two :
1. The concept of being saved the moment you are 'born again'
2. The claim that once you are considered saved you are guaranteed salvation.

ANSWER :
Yes to both (1) and (2), dear Rajk999.
Whoever is "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13) is already saved because it is the will of the Father that none should be lost ..