Jesus was no teacher....

Originally posted by knightmeister
Fine . If you want a sanitised "discussion" where no-one challenges anything instead of a proper meaningful debate full of pertinent piercing questions on both sides then find some nice forum where everyone is "nice" and tells you what you want to hear.


People will make up their own mind on your good self anyway. They will know if someone is about. If you don't want anyone to hold a mirror up to you then don't come on here.

Why don't you drop the pretense that you've only been looking for a "proper meaningful debate"? For months now it's been a steady stream of personal attacks as you've been stalking me. Fortunately several understand exactly what's going on here as evidenced from the following posts on this very thread:

twhitehead: "What seems to me to be most dangerous about ToOs arguments is that you seem to strugle to defend against them and repeatedly resort to personal attacks.

bbarr: "My point is that you are stalking and harassing ToO, that it is trashy and lame, and that you should back off."

LemonJello: "And you're off the deep end. You start a thread attempting to "put the record straight" that you are not a stalker; yet, you have only managed to further solidify the conclusion that you are indeed a stalker."

You can continue to live in denial or take a look in the mirror that they are holding up for you. You speak about "intellectual dishonesty" when you continue to be dishonest with yourself. Just admit to yourself that you've allowed this obsession to get the best of you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why don't you drop the pretense that you've only been looking for a "proper meaningful debate"? For months now it's been a steady stream of personal attacks as you've been stalking me. Fortunately several understand exactly what's going on here as evidenced from the following posts on this very thread:

twhitehead: "What seems to me to be most danger t admit to yourself that you've allowed this obsession to get the best of you.

If you want to diffuse the situation, why do you keep responding to KM?

Just drop it. Someone has to. Why not you?

Otherwise you guys will continue to feed off of each other ad infinitum.

I think everyone recognizes that you're both intelligent, interesting, and capable debaters, who happen to have differing views on a difficult subject. It really doesn't matter who has the last word.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If you want to diffuse the situation, why do you keep responding to KM?

Just drop it. Someone has to. Why not you?

Otherwise you guys will continue to feed off of each other ad infinitum.

I think everyone recognizes that you're both intelligent, interesting, and capable debaters, who happen to have differing views on a difficult subject. It really doesn't matter who has the last word.

The real question is why does KM keep posting about me at all? He's the aggressor here and has been. It's been going on for months now. He keeps attacking me by misrepresenting my character, position, motives, etc. so I feel compelled to set the record straight. I keep asking KM to stop posting about me, yet he persists.

You may not understand what's going on here but TW does:
"What seems to me to be most dangerous about ToOs arguments is that you seem to strugle to defend against them and repeatedly resort to personal attacks."

I believe that KM has a right to post his beliefs on spirituality without people attacking him because of those beliefs. I believe that I should have the same right.

Edit: You suggest that I "drop it". Drop my defense? Read through this thread for an idea of what's going on here.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The real question is why does KM keep posting about me at all? He's the aggressor here and has been. It's been going on for months now. He keeps attacking me by misrepresenting my character, position, motives, etc. so I feel compelled to set the record straight. I keep asking KM to stop posting about me, yet he persists.

You may not understand wh drop it". Drop my defense? Read through this thread for an idea of what's going on here.

You may not understand what's going on here but TW does:
"What seems to me to be most dangerous about ToOs arguments is that you seem to strugle to defend against them and repeatedly resort to personal attacks." ------ToO--------------

I think when it comes to barr, lemon , whitehead etc the phrase "well they would say that wouldn't they " comes to mind. Unless you are completely naive you will realise that this is hardly a neutral forum.

TW for example does not see the connection between talking about overcoming sin and salvation and relating it to personal experience.He sees personal experience as irrelevant and therefore when I try to draw you on this he interprets it as "personal" attacks.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The real question is why does KM keep posting about me at all? He's the aggressor here and has been. It's been going on for months now. He keeps attacking me by misrepresenting my character, position, motives, etc. so I feel compelled to set the record straight. I keep asking KM to stop posting about me, yet he persists.

You may not understand wh ...[text shortened]... drop it". Drop my defense? Read through this thread for an idea of what's going on here.

I believe that KM has a right to post his beliefs on spirituality without people attacking him because of those beliefs. I believe that I should have the same right. ============ToO-----------------

You absolutely have that right. But this is crucial to understand. If the belief you put forward is questioning the moral integrity of Christians and specifically relates to moral behaviour and sin then it's only natural to expect that questions will come regarding your own sin and moral integrity. If these questions are then avoided what conclusions does one draw? If this is reflected back to you this is then an "attack"???

Anyway , I'm done with this right now. It's just a cul-de-sac. It always has been and always will be about the issues, consistency of argument and intellectual honesty.

I'm not going to get drawn into this. The overall facts are that many chances have been offered to you to debate the issues thoroughly and simply via question and answer. I have always been the one ready to have my position tested in the heat of debate and you have always declined to follow. These my friend are the brute facts and they won't change. As someone recently commented " I don't think ToO is really interested in a serious debate ".

I have come to the conclusion that you are playing a game with people on this forum that you don't even realise yourself , so it's pointless challeneging the left hand on it when the right hand is blissfully unaware. If I could see your face I would have been able to judge this , so maybe I have misjudged your capacity for self knowledge.

I'd like to think that if we met in a coffee bar one day we would probably warm to each other without realising who the other was. I also think that we would probably find that we were both as stubborn as each other and neither of us was the demon that we thought the other was.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I believe that KM has a right to post his beliefs on spirituality without people attacking him because of those beliefs. I believe that I should have the same right. ============ToO-----------------

You absolutely have that right. But this is crucial to understand. If the belief you put forward is questioning the moral integrity of Christians and sp ubborn as each other and neither of us was the demon that we thought the other was.

I was going to let it go at your previous post, but I have to address this one. The way you try to portray the situation makes a mockery of truth. Once again, to set the record straight:

The belief that I put forth is that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. That Jesus taught that one cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Whether or not any individual sins has no bearing on what Jesus taught. Your asking if I sin has NOTHING to do with the issue. You asked the question and I declined. You kept asking the question and I kept declining. This soon became such an obsession with you where you kept asking the question pretty much whereever I posted in this forum. You also started making disparaging remarks and misrepresenting my character, position, motives, etc. You also directed such comments to other posters. This is what I'm calling an "attack". You even went so far as to start several threads attacking me to give it more visibility. This has been going on for months now. I can't believe that you're trying to portray this as your simply wanting to have a debate and me avoiding it. You are out of control and have been for some time.

If it were about "about the issues, consistency of argument and intellectual honesty" as you're trying to claim, you wouldn't have resorted to the above.

When someone said "I don't think ToO is really interested in a serious debate", it was well after I made it clear, dozens of times, that I had no interest in "debating" anything with you. That all I was interested in doing was setting the record straight and to get to to stop posting about me. I told that poster as much. This is yet another example of how you distort the facts to suit your own purposes.

I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your distortions, half-truths and outright lies. It's pathetic how you continue to distort the truth to suit your own purposes. You're as delusional as they get.

Once again, please stop addressing posts to me, posting about me as well as starting threads about me and lying about me.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I was going to let it go at your previous post, but I have to address this one. The way you try to portray the situation makes a mockery of truth. Once again, to set the record straight:

The belief that I put forth is that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. That Jesus taught that one cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/" ...[text shortened]... posting about me as well as starting threads about me and lying about me.

Your asking if I sin has NOTHING to do with the issue
-------------ToO-----------------------------------------

The fact that you think this does (as Ephin once pointed out) "just about say it all really".

Were you ever really interested in a proper debate with anyone?

That's all I have to say......

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your asking if I sin has NOTHING to do with the issue
-------------ToO-----------------------------------------

The fact that you think this does (as Ephin once pointed out) "just about say it all really".

Were you ever really interested in a proper debate with anyone?

That's all I have to say......

Like I said, "Whether or not any individual sins has no bearing on what Jesus taught." It logically follows that whether or not I sin also has no bearing on what Jesus taught.

The fact that you can't seem to wrap your mind around the above only serves to demonstrate the futility in trying to have a "proper debate" with you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I said, "Whether or not any individual sins has no bearing on what Jesus taught." It logically follows that whether or not I sin also has no bearing on what Jesus taught.

The fact that you can't seem to wrap your mind around the above only serves to demonstrate the futility in trying to have a "proper debate" with you.

But it's not just about logic is it? If we were discussing quantum physics it would be different , but the subject matter you always bring up is regarding sin and behaviour and man's struggle with sin.

A proper debate on a subject like that is one that is not just intellectual but also embraces human experience and personal knowledge. The only real , detailled data that you can have on this exists within your own soul , not in some book or theory. Unless you can feel the sin in you , you can't relate the discussion to anything.

You can not have a "proper" discussion about cooking spices with a man who not only thinks that his own tastebuds are irrelevant but won't even say whether he has even used coriander or not. You can have a discussion but it would be grossly incomplete.

Please think about what I am saying here. I do feel that this is the last chance of any meaningful discussion at all between us.