Judgment

Originally posted by @js357
I searched on

bible those who never heard the gospel

No quotation marks.

And got a slew of links. I think the grand summary Christian advice is to study and pray, knowing that all will be resolved by the Lord.

Although a lot of the links use a lot of words to get there.

I think everyone edit: *who makes it into adulthood* has the opportunity to hear the Gospel but some have to actively seek it out and it’s not always easy to get.

I heard a story once about a Chinese girl who became convinced God exists by looking at the nighttime sky and wanted to find out more about Him. She eventually learned of the Gospel after arriving in America (this was pre-Internet) and became a Christian. Though she had to seek it out, her initial motivation was something anyone and everyone can experience.

Calls to mind this Bible verse:

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

(Romans 1:20)

Ok bro, but that doesn't account for the fate of babies who die at birth, or the aforementioned deaf and blind person. So there are rare exceptions to Paul's decree. Since we know there are exceptions to it, and if we agree those are judged along a different line--my question is, why is the atheist--who doesn't have the ears to hear or the eyes to see--any different?

Just kind of a food for thought.

Originally posted by @sonship
Speaking for myself here. There are situations in which I do not know how God will determine final judgement.

It is useless for one to press me that I MUST know.

I noted in another forum the propensity of theists to turn their back on the pursuit of knowledge and refuse to use their freewill to obtain it. EVE chose freewill, and you turn your back on freewill..ie you don't want to know. You are happy in your ignorant state...ignorance is indeed bliss for you. Why do you theists keep acting as if God never kicked you out of paradise by refusing to use the freewill given to you. You are behaving the way you think EVE should have behaved....but it's too late for that. Once out, you cannot return.

Originally posted by @galveston75
I would think those scriptures are quit clear....

Not what I asked...

Originally posted by @secondson
Justly, by God.

That's all you need to know. 😉

But it is not all we want to know. That's what all the hypothetical questions are about.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Ok bro, but that doesn't account for the fate of babies who die at birth, or the aforementioned deaf and blind person. So there are rare exceptions to Paul's decree. Since we know there are exceptions to it, and if we agree those are judged along a different line--my question is, why is the atheist--who doesn't have the ears to hear or the eyes to see--any different?

Just kind of a food for thought.

I think (obviously just my opinion) that anyone who reaches adulthood will be drawn by God the Father to Christ and it will happen in unique ways. It happened to me in quite a unique way and I suspect that’s the case with everyone. How much we resist the drawing (and if we resist the drawing) is up to us.

I think children are granted a pass. I think a deaf and blind person could still be drawn by God the Father to Christ via Braille. There may be exceptions due to physical limitations but as long as a person is capable of thinking, I think it can happen.

I think an atheist’s obstacles to knowing Christ and getting saved are self-imposed - namely pride and an unwillingness to investigate the deity of Jesus Christ or call upon God for whatever reason.

Originally posted by @uzless
I noted in another forum the propensity of theists to turn their back on the pursuit of knowledge and refuse to use their freewill to obtain it. EVE chose freewill, and you turn your back on freewill..ie you don't want to know. You are happy in your ignorant state...ignorance is indeed bliss for you. Why do you theists keep acting as if God never kicked ...[text shortened]... y you think EVE should have behaved....but it's too late for that. Once out, you cannot return.

What knowledge do you think we’re turning our back on? There are some things about the ways of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and completely holy God Who has an eternal perspective that we simply can’t know - in the same way a fish in a pond can’t know there’s a farmhouse 100 yards away.

Not being able to know or understand something doesn’t invalidate God or call His holiness into question (at least not for me.) It’s just an acknowledgment of a human’s limitations.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

(Isaiah 55:8-9)

Originally posted by @romans1009
What knowledge do you think we’re turning our back on? There are some things about the ways of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and completely holy God Who has an eternal perspective that we simply can’t know - in the same way a fish in a pond can’t know there’s a farmhouse 100 yards away.

Not being able to know or understand something doesn’t i ...[text shortened]... h, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

(Isaiah 55:8-9)

I think you missed the point. Eve was given the chance to know the things, or some of the things, that god knew or she could stay in heaven as per Genesis. Eve chose to discover knowledge and ate the apple. Humans, in turn, now have freewill to obtain the knowledge that God held previously to himself. To say, "well i don't know the answer to that question and i'm fine with not knowing" is ironic in the sense that that is exactly the opposite choice that EVE made. She chose the pursuit of knowledge.

So now that you are here, on earth, still cast out of paradise because of Eve's decision, why do you not use your freewill to pursue the knowledge once only held by God? Your scripture quote should only ring true if you were STILL IN PARADISE...those words would be a warning to you to NOT eat the apple. But it's too late. You are already bannished from paradise. You do not need to follow those words because they were meant for a time when you were in paradise but you are no longer in paradise so what use is it to continue following that advice?

You cannot undue Eve's choice. So, seek knowledge..use your freewill. It's all you have left.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Ok bro, but that doesn't account for the fate of babies who die at birth, or the aforementioned deaf and blind person. So there are rare exceptions to Paul's decree. Since we know there are exceptions to it, and if we agree those are judged along a different line--my question is, why is the atheist--who doesn't have the ears to hear or the eyes to see--any different?

You are talking about the ancient idea of LIMBO first brought up centuries ago and only recently has the catholic church relented and stated their non-support. In my opinion it was meant as a psychological torture method to ensure parents had their kids baptized for the penalty incurred should the child die (which was very prevalent in those days) was a lifetime of mental guilt and anguish. Psychological warfare at its finest.

History of Limbo
In response to Pelagius (d. 425), who taught that the heresy that baptism is not necessary for salvation (called Pelagianism), St. Augustine (d. 430) contended that unbaptized children who die are condemned to hell, though they do not suffer all its pains because they are not guilty of personal sin.

Later theologians, in the Middle Ages, posited the existence of limbo as a way to soften the harshness of St. Augustine’s position. Unlike the state of quasi-hell posited by St. Augustine, these theologians defined limbo as a quasi-heaven, a place or state of where unbaptized persons enjoy a natural state of happiness yet remain excluded from the Beatific Vision. Some incorrectly identify this limbo with the hell of the Apostle’s Creed where, according to tradition, Christ spent the interval between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Limbo’s theological foundations are shaky at best. The Catholic Church teaches that God wants all people to be saved; God wills for all people to join him in heaven. We also know that God is merciful and that people can get to heaven who have not known Jesus through no fault of their own. Therefore, that souls who are denied the beatific vision and sent to a place that’s not quite heaven and not quite hell is incongruous with God’s universal salvific will and mercy.

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/do-unbaptized-babies-go-to-limbo/

Originally posted by @uzless
I think you missed the point. Eve was given the chance to know the things, or some of the things, that god knew or she could stay in heaven as per Genesis. Eve chose to discover knowledge and ate the apple. Humans, in turn, now have freewill to obtain the knowledge that God held previously to himself. To say, "well i don't know the answer to that questio ...[text shortened]...
You cannot undue Eve's choice. So, seek knowledge..use your freewill. It's all you have left.

You seem, intentionally or not, to be implying God wanted Adam and Eve to be ignorant and He didn’t. It wasn’t the tree of knowledge that God forbade them from eating from, it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God did not want them to know evil (and who can blame Him?)

So Eve chose to know evil. What does that have to do with me acknowledging there are some things I can’t know? I know next to nothing of the spiritual realm and doubt I will know more before I die. What am I supposed to do about that, in your view? Exercise my free will to do what?

<<Humans, in turn, now have freewill to obtain the knowledge that God held previously to himself.>>

You really think this is a true statement? If you’re referring to scientific advancements and understanding the composition and nature of the universe, I’m all for that. But I wouldn’t say God previously held that knowledge to Himself. I’d say we lacked the technology to know it.

Originally posted by @uzless
You are talking about the ancient idea of LIMBO first brought up centuries ago and only recently has the catholic church relented and stated their non-support. In my opinion it was meant as a psychological torture method to ensure parents had their kids baptized for the penalty incurred should the child die (which was very prevalent in those days) was a li ...[text shortened]... vific will and mercy.

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/do-unbaptized-babies-go-to-limbo/

If baptism is necessary to get to heaven, why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross, who was neither baptized nor did any good works, that he would be with Him in paradise? The thief only expressed belief in Christ.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Oh well. You can lead a horse to water 'n all that.

The point I wanted to debate is this: If it is true that--having neither heard the Gospel nor having a chance to accept or reject Christ--you die... aren't you judged after death up in heaven by the condition of your heart?

Again, I hear this from actual pastors.

So if that's true--then what ...[text shortened]... evidence? Does this mean kind-hearted atheists have a chance for a different kind of judgment?

I think you're over complicating it.

God will judge justly. God knows every word, thought and deed that every human being ever thought, said or did. God keeps meticulous books, and will judge "the dead" accordingly.

No one will be condemned unjustly.

Don't worry about the guy on the island, that's God's concern.

Originally posted by @uzless
I think you missed the point. Eve was given the chance to know the things, or some of the things, that god knew or she could stay in heaven as per Genesis. Eve chose to discover knowledge and ate the apple. Humans, in turn, now have freewill to obtain the knowledge that God held previously to himself. To say, "well i don't know the answer to that questio ...[text shortened]...
You cannot undue Eve's choice. So, seek knowledge..use your freewill. It's all you have left.

"So now that you are here, on earth, still cast out of paradise because of Eve's decision,.."

Incorrect.

Eve's decision wasn't the catalyst for the fall of man. That was Adam's doing. That truth is made abundantly clear throughout scripture.

Eve was "beguiled", Adam chose, and the blame game continues to this day.

Read the account.

Genesis 3:11-13
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
¶ And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Essentially, Adam blamed God because God gave him the woman, and Eve blamed the serpent.

Eve is not to blame for plunging the human race into sin. That was Adam's fault. Clearly.

Originally posted by @secondson
I think you're over complicating it.

God will judge justly. God knows every word, thought and deed that every human being ever thought, said or did. God keeps meticulous books, and will judge "the dead" accordingly.

No one will be condemned unjustly.

Don't worry about the guy on the island, that's God's concern.

Thanks. I'm not losing sleep over this just wanted to see what folks' thoughts were.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Mmm. I don't think so. This question can apply to babies, Aborigine tribesmen, people born deaf and blind, etc. The popular view of Christians is not what you answered.

There are many who have never heard of the gospel neither of Jesus Christ and will still enter the Kingdom of God.

There are many who have heard and know and have professed belief and faith and will be cast out.

This is the righteous judgment of God who has stated clearly throughout the Bible that He is no respecter of persons and that He hates mouth worship