1. Account suspended
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    24 Jan '12 00:352 edits
    RajK is not someone with whom i agree everyday, but it seems to me that he made
    a rather excellent point that a Christians faith cannot seek any kind of justification
    exclusively on the basis of faith. It appears to me to hinge on one or two scriptural
    references while ignoring a plethora of others, but far more dangerous than that it
    brings with it absolutely no accountability and may even foster and engender a
    licentiousness, unworthy of the Christ.

    (James 2:14-26) 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has
    faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a
    brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet
    a certain one of you says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but you
    do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too,
    faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. Nevertheless, a certain one will
    say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works,
    and I shall show you my faith by my works.” You believe there is one God, do you?
    You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you
    care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? Was not
    Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his
    son upon the altar? You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by
    [his] works [his] faith was perfected, and the scripture was fulfilled which says:
    “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he
    came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.” you see that a man is to be declared
    righteous by works, and not by faith alone
    . In the same manner was not also
    Rahab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the
    messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? Indeed, as the body
    without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    any comments?
  2. Joined
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    24 Jan '12 06:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    RajK is not someone with whom i agree everyday, but it seems to me that he made
    a rather excellent point that a Christians faith cannot seek any kind of justification
    exclusively on the basis of faith. It appears to me to hinge on one or two scriptural
    references while ignoring a plethora of others, but far more dangerous than that it
    brings ...[text shortened]... deed, as the body
    without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    any comments?
    If this is the opinion of the bible - then what is yours?
  3. Standard memberChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
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    24 Jan '12 06:47
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    RajK is not someone with whom i agree everyday, but it seems to me that he made
    a rather excellent point that a Christians faith cannot seek any kind of justification
    exclusively on the basis of faith. It appears to me to hinge on one or two scriptural
    references while ignoring a plethora of others, but far more dangerous than that it
    brings ...[text shortened]... deed, as the body
    without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    any comments?
    No
  4. Jo'Burg South Africa
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    24 Jan '12 07:11
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    RajK is not someone with whom i agree everyday, but it seems to me that he made
    a rather excellent point that a Christians faith cannot seek any kind of justification
    exclusively on the basis of faith. It appears to me to hinge on one or two scriptural
    references while ignoring a plethora of others, but far more dangerous than that it
    brings ...[text shortened]... deed, as the body
    without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    any comments?
    I like this a lot. Faith and works do go hand in hand. If you have faith but refuse to help a brother or sister in God - this means your faith is somewhat fake (this is my opinion).

    There is no loss in to giving to the needed, there is only a gain, even if you're not religious at all, there is only gain.
  5. Cape Town
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    24 Jan '12 08:07
    Originally posted by Nicksten
    There is no loss in to giving to the needed, there is only a gain, even if you're not religious at all, there is only gain.
    Unless the needy are foreigners. Then it is a sign that the end of the world is nigh!
  6. Account suspended
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    24 Jan '12 09:02
    Originally posted by Nicksten
    I like this a lot. Faith and works do go hand in hand. If you have faith but refuse to help a brother or sister in God - this means your faith is somewhat fake (this is my opinion).

    There is no loss in to giving to the needed, there is only a gain, even if you're not religious at all, there is only gain.
    yes because there is more happiness in giving, why? because not only does the
    recipient get happiness from receiving, but the giver gets the joy of giving also 🙂
  7. Jo'Burg South Africa
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    24 Jan '12 09:20
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Unless the needy are foreigners. Then it is a sign that the end of the world is nigh!
    Wow I didn't know you were actually religious, nice to know this.
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    24 Jan '12 09:24
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    If this is the opinion of the bible - then what is yours?
    I have already given my opinion in the opening comments, I think that justification
    exclusively on the basis of faith is a a rather dangerous teaching.
  9. Jo'Burg South Africa
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    24 Jan '12 09:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes because there is more happiness in giving, why? because not only does the
    recipient get happiness from receiving, but the giver gets the joy of giving also 🙂
    I couldn't have said it better. I would like to add that it motivates the giver to give again if the receiver appreciates the value.
  10. Joined
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    24 Jan '12 10:193 edits
    There is really no contradiction between James's view of justification and Paul's view of justification.

    Paul (who authored 13 of the 27 New Testament books) says that he and Barnabus did not subject themselves to those "false brothers" preaching against a Gospel of justification by faith even for one hour -

    " ... false brothers, brought in secretly, who stole in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into slavery."

    To them we yielded with the subjection [demanded] not even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might remain with you." (Gal. 2:4b,5)


    NOT FOR ONE HOUR did Paul submit to the "false brothers" wanting to bring the grace enjoying Christians into "slavery" of false teaching.

    And what WAS the false teaching ? It contradicted THIS -

    "And knowing that a man is not justified out of works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we also have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified out of faith in Christ and not out of the works of law, because out of works of law no flesh will be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

    False Christian brothers were teaching contrary to this above passage.

    Like today the Jehovah Witnesses are "false brothers" and I will not yield in subjection to them for one hour even if they quote the book of James in a superfiscial way.

    Eventually, I will show why some people's view of faith in Christ is superfiscial.
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    24 Jan '12 10:402 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    'works of Law', Jaywill, Paul was making reference to the Law, the Mosaic Law and
    how some were attempting to justify themselves on the basis of keeping the Law,
    how this glaring fact could have escaped your notice i cannot say? We are
    Christians, we are not under the law. It therefore makes all your caustic diatribe in
    this regard nothing more than an emotional reaction deviod of any reason
    whatsoever. Rajk is not a Jehovah's witness is he, yet he correctly pointed out the
    error of your assertion that a Christian can be justified exclusively by faith.

    You have made not one reference to the words of James except to state in a rather
    undignified and predictable way that it was used superficially, when in fact, it was
    simply quoted. All in all Jaywill the sum of your post amounts to once again
    elements not explicitly stated in scripture, there is no mention of Jehovah's
    witnesses, there is no mention that we are false simply because we cannot agree
    that a Christian can seek justification on the basis of faith alone, there is no mention
    that we seek to enslave anyone by appeals to the Mosaic Law, all in all, its a fairly
    shameful attempt, an ad hominen of the meanest character and perhaps reflective
    of how little recourse to reason your position actually holds.
  12. Joined
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    24 Jan '12 10:491 edit
    Fallen man cannot be justified by works of law. In Galatians 2:16 Paul says -

    "Knowing thqaat a man is not justified out of works of law."

    Then at the end of the verse Paul writes - "Out of works of law no flesh will be justified."

    The word "flesh" in 2:16 means fallen man who has become what Genesis 6:3 discribed as flesh:

    "And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh ..."

    Fallen man from the infiltration of Adam and his descendents with a Satanic nature corrupting the God created body became something striving against the God created conscience of man and God.

    By works of law no flesh will be justified before God. Even man's TEARS need to be washed in the blood of Christ's redemption.

    Faith brings a sinner into union in which we and Christ are onee. Therefore, the expression "by faith in Christ" actually denotes an "organic" union accomplished by believing in Jesus Christ.

    The phrase "in Christ" refers to this organic union. Before the sinner believes in Christ, there is a great separation between him and Christ. But through believing in the living and available Christ, who rose from the dead, we sinners are joined to Christ to be in an organic union in the innermost human spirit with Christ.

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

    Faith has to do with union with Christ.
    Faith has to do with being "joined" to the Lord Christ.

    Faith causes Christ to make His HOME in your heart - both initially and encreasingly, more and more -

    "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Ephesians 3:17)

    JAMES was only saying that this union with Christ brought about by faith should be evidenced by actions before man which reveal faith.

    More attention may be given to James ( the physical brother of Jesus and leading elder in the early days of the church in Jerusalem ). The letter of James is not a letter of the James the brother of John, one of the twelve original apostles.

    More will be said about James. But one might consider James speaking more of justification BEFORE man on earth. Since almost any aspect of the truth can be twisted some had twisted the truth of justification through faith in such a way that it perverted something James was very specialized in. That is practical daily Christian virtues.

    I stop here this post.
  13. Joined
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    24 Jan '12 10:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    'works of Law', Jaywill, Paul was making reference to the Law, the Mosaic Law and
    how some were attempting to justify themselves on the basis of keeping the Law,
    how this glaring fact could have escaped your notice i cannot say? We are
    Christians, we are not under the law. It therefore makes all your caustic diatribe in
    this regard nothing m ...[text shortened]... cter and perhaps reflective
    of how little recourse to reason your position actually holds.
    One post will not say all that I want to say or need to say.
    Long posts, people whine about.

    And since you turned me over apostle style to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, better leave me alone.

    I do not have you in mind in my public replies to other readers of this thread.
  14. Joined
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    24 Jan '12 11:03
    For the record, not ALL religious people who desire to bring Christian brothers into slavery are Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Deceived Christians can also desire to steal in and spy the freedom of brothers to bring them into bondage.

    Not all bondage is to Moses' law keeping. Any distraction from the living union with Christ will lead to bondage of one sort or another.

    And I didn't say Rajk999 was a JW. But beware of robbie carrobie who is, unless he repents someday having his eyes opened.
  15. Account suspended
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    24 Jan '12 11:051 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    He is making reference to the Mosaic Law Jaywill, that is something entirely different
    from the Law of the Christ, we are not actually saying that a person can be justified
    on the basis of the Mosiac Law, in this regard we agree and yes without faith it is
    impossible to please God, as James states, but believe is nothing in itself, James
    makes the point clearly, daemons also believe in Jesus Christ, they even
    acknowledge on several occasions that he is the son of God.

    I do not doubt your sincerity it is clear to all that you sincerely believe the things
    that you are professing, but without some indication that ones faith is alive and well,
    which indication James points out comes from works in harmony with ones faith,
    then it is useless to attempt to justify ones faith on the basis of itself.

    My main concern with this type of teaching is that it is an inducement for non
    activity, i dont need to do anything, i have my faith, well ok, so what, so do the
    daemons and not only that it seems to me to be a kind of carte blanche for every
    kind of sinful practice, i am saved through my faith, no matter what I do, i am
    saved, if i sin, so what, and look Jaywill what has transpired, we are trampling upon
    the sacrifice of the Christ and there is no more any sacrifice left for us. This is a
    very real concern Jaywill.
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