Justification on the basis of faith

Originally posted by jaywill
One post will not say all that I want to say or need to say.
Long posts, people whine about.

And since you turned me over apostle style to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, better leave me alone.

I do not have you in mind in my public replies to other readers of this thread.

are you excommunicating me again Jaywill? what have i said that is offensive? Will
you please point it out, not only that you seem intent to attack my religion when it has
practically nothing to do with the discussion of these verses, you have so far termed
me false, a false brother, spiritually blind etc etc, this lends absolutely no credence to
your case Jaywill, i dont know why you are acting this way, but if you are feeling it,
then why am i being made out to be a false teacher when all i have attempted is to
comment upon the verses cited, is it such a crime?

Before I say any more about James I want to say more about a real appreciation for justification by faith.

Many people have a shallow understanding of justification by faith. How could Christ be our righteousness if we were not "organically" united to Him ?

I put "organic" in quotes because I am not speaking of a physical union. But do not think because it is not physical it is not real.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" means the real human spirit is really joined to the real Holy Spirit deep within a man and the two spirits become one joined, mindled, united spirit - "one spirit" with the Lord.

The Lord, the resurrected Christ, the Man who is as the right hand of God, somewhere on the throne of this whole universe, is also become "a life giving Spirit".

"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit".

I labored greatly to prove that Paul used "Christ" and "the Spirit of Christ" in interchangeable ways. Paul used the title "the Spirit of God" and "CHRIST" and "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" in interchangeable ways in Romans 8:9-11.

Christ is absolutely the Spirit of Christ - the [ZOE - divine ] life GIVING Spirit". For Christ to GIVE LIFE means to GIVE GOD.

To GIVE LIFE means to GIVE JESUS a Living Person to a believer. This "life" is not the BIOS of biological physical life. This "life" is not the psuche of psychological soul. It is the divine ZOE of eternal life which is the Father's life.

God can distribute Himself into man. And that which He will and can communicate can be imparted into man. And this life is Christ and is in Christ. Justification is in UNION with Christ. And Christ becomes a person's entire history.

Before you believe you have a history of sins. God's record of your sins is infallible. Nothing is missing. Nothing is exagerated. Nothing is obscure. He knew the action, the act as well as the motive.

After believing into Christ you have a history of Jesus Christ Himself. Christ becomes a man's righteousness. Your past is JESUS. Your legacy is JESUS. Before God you are as one who never sinned at all.

He doesn't even REMEMBER what you did because of your union with Jesus Christ.

" ... their sins and their lawlessnesses I will by no means remember any more" (Hebrew 8:17)

Some are afraid. "But if I believe this I may continue to sin more and more thinking everything is free and easy."

Christ is a SEED of a new life. Water that seed, feed that seed, nourish that seed and your tastes and inclination will die and be replaced by godly ones. You will, listen, you will begin to ENJOY God.

Now we can say something about James. James said that the "implanted word" was able to save the soul.

1.) The phrase "the implanted word" (James 1:21) should signify a kind of planting of a seed of life. It is not just an agreement with doctrine. It is the receiving of a living seed IMPLANTED into the "soil" of a man's being.

2.) The saving of the SOUL here means more than a saving from hell fire. In the New Testament the salvation of the SOUL or the saving of the SOUL means a TRANSFORMATION in the soul. It means a conformation into the image of Christ by a remolding, re-shaping as a process.

Like a weak branch being GRAFTED into a healthy tree - the healthy tree flows its life and nature into the sickly and weak branch. And this flowing of the tree's healthy life into the branch SAVES the branch.

This is an illustration of the living word being IMPLANTED into the heart of the believer unto the saving of his soul, Then his actions began to MANIFEST the living and growing life he has received. He is justified before the world because works begin to be manifested from him in practical ways.

James and Paul do not contradict one another.

Originally posted by jaywill
Before I say any more about James I want to say more about a real appreciation for justification by faith.

Many people have a shallow understanding of justification by faith. How could Christ be our righteousness if we were not "organically" united to Him ?

I put "organic" in quotes because I am not speaking of a physical union. But do not think bec .

James and Paul do not contradict one another.

if you are organically linked to the Christ as you claim then ones faith will automatically
demonstrate that fact through works, will it not, for it cannot be possible to be part of
the Christ and not demonstrate this fact through the medium of works, in other words,
the evident demonstration of the reality of the claim is seen , not through the
profession of faith, but through works. Yet even here there is room for caution,
because Christ states that many will attempt to justify themselves on the basis of
works, but in fact were workers of 'lawlessness'. It therefore becomes apparent that
its this term 'lawlessness', which becomes paramount to our understanding. What is it
but an indication that despite faith, despite works, if we are not living in harmony with
the Law of the Christ, our profession of faith and our works are actually useless.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
are you excommunicating me again Jaywill? what have i said that is offensive? Will
you please point it out, not only that you seem intent to attack my religion when it has
practically nothing to do with the discussion of these verses, you have so far termed
me false, a false brother, spiritually blind etc etc, this lends absolutely no credenc ...[text shortened]... lse teacher when all i have attempted is to
comment upon the verses cited, is it such a crime?

As a teacher of the Gospel of Christ I do declare war on your false doctrine. It is not personal. It is a matter of what is the truth.

It is not a lack of tolerance. It is to be definite and realize that we preach a gospel of unconditional surrender to Christ.

Paul said concerning the Judaizers - "To whom we yielded with the subjection [demanded] not even for an hour, THAT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL MIGHT REMAIN WITH YOU." (Gal. 2:5 my emphasis)

Sure - "a slave of the Lord must not contend, but be gentle to toward all, apt to teach ... bearing with wrong, in meekness intructing those who contradict ,, etc. etc."

Paul did not say they were tolerant. Didn't mean he did not love them. But for the truth's sake he would not submit to them for an hour.

And what was the fight over ?
Relevant to THIS thread it was this:

"KNOWING that a man is not justified out of works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we also have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified out of faith in Christ and not out of the works of law,

BECAUSE OUT OF THE WORKS OF THE LAW NO FLESH WILL BE JUSTIFIED" (Gal. 2:16)

In this regard brother Martin Luther was raised up by God to battle this matter centries ago.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you are organically linked to the Christ as you claim then ones faith will automatically
demonstrate that fact through works, will it not, for it cannot be possible to be part of
the Christ and not demonstrate this fact through the medium of works, in other words,
the evident demonstration of the reality of the claim is seen , not through th ny with
the Law of the Christ, our profession of faith and our works are actually useless.

Yet even here there is room for caution,
because Christ states that many will attempt to justify themselves on the basis of works, but in fact were workers of 'lawlessness'. It therefore becomes apparent that its this term 'lawlessness', which becomes paramount to our understanding. What is it but an indication that despite faith, despite works, if we are not living in harmony with the Law of the Christ, our profession of faith and our works are actually useless.

The words sound very good. I fear upon closer examination you do not believe in any union with Christ.

At least your indoctrination is to do Jehovah a "favor" by de-emphasizing an angel named Michael (who was Jesus) and going back to exalt the God of before incarnation, the Old Testament Jehovah.

What harmony with Christ does the kingdom hall teach? The words sound good.

They want no union or "harmony" with Christ. They want to get RID of the exaltation of Christ. They of the Watchtower want to erect OBSTACLES to a union with Jesus Christ.

This they think is doing Jehovah a big favor. "Don't over exalt this servant angel Michael. Put him down a little. Put him down a lot in fact. And instead we talk talk talk about Jehovah of the Old Testament before "the Word became flesh".

You need to get out of that thing. You need to believe into the living and available Jesus. And if you have then you need to realize you are in the wrong thing - Jehovah's Witnesses.

There is not a nickel's worth of difference between the chief priests persecuting Christ for what Christ said and the Jehovah's Witnesses persecuting Christ for what He said.

The ONLY difference is that the JWs have 20 some centries of examples of immature Christian disciple's poorer testimony to bolster up their opposition.

I did not say all the church has failed. I did not say all Christians are a scandel. I said that the JWs have enough history to point to in order to bolster up their opposition to what Christ is and said.


Anyway, back to Paul and James in the New Testament.

Again, many Christians have a mere doctrinal understanding of justification by faith, According to their concept, Christ is the just One. the righteous One on the throne in the presence of God. when we believe in Christ, God reckons Christ to be our righteousness.

Sometimes I myself might write in a manner which gives a shallow impression.

It is too shallow to think God just reckons Christ to be the sinner's righteousness. Rather it is an organic joining to this living Christ. It is a righteousness because Christ as life has been infused into a man.

In order to be justified by faith in Christ, we need to believe in the Lord Jesus out of an appreciation of His preciousness. As Christ's preciousness is infused into us through the preaching of the gospel, we spontaneously appreciate the Lord and call on Him.

Through such a reaching out to Christ, through a contacting of the AVAILABLE and LIVING Jesus we become one with Christ. Therefore, God must reckon Him as our righteousness.

God actually puts the caller into Christ - "But of Him [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption." (1 Cor. 1:30,31)

God can put the reacher and the caller and the toucher INTO the realm of this living Person Christ. And Christ becomes to that caller, that reacher, and that toucher of the Spirit of Christ - "both righteousness and sanctification and redemption".

Jesus spoke of that day in which the believer finds a way INTO Jesus through faith in His resurrection presence -

" In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

We begin the process of being mingled with the Triune God.

" ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

" ... WE will come to him and make an abode with him."

Originally posted by jaywill
Again, many Christians have a mere doctrinal understanding of justification by faith, According to their concept, Christ is the just One. the righteous One on the throne in the presence of God. when we believe in Christ, God reckons Christ to be our righteousness.

Sometimes I myself might write in a manner which gives a shallow impression.

It is to John 14:23)

" ... WE will come to him and make an abode with him." [/b]

i posted a whole passage from James yet you maker no reference to it and seem
content to pour scorn on all who draw serious attention to the deficiencies of your
approach, why is that? Please try to refrain from posting elements that are not explicit
in the text, terms like the triune God are not found in the Bible, neither is a 'mingling',
with Christ, you may state that they are inferred, but no more than that.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Yet even here there is room for caution,
because Christ states that many will attempt to justify themselves on the basis of works, but in fact were workers of 'lawlessness'. It therefore becomes apparent that its this term 'lawlessness', which becomes paramount to our understanding. What is it but an indication that despite faith, despite works you have then you need to realize you are in the wrong thing - Jehovah's Witnesses.

What harmony with Christ does the kingdom hall teach?

That Christ is the way, the truth and the life, that he is the head of the Christian
congregation, that he is King of Gods Kingdom, that we must imitate him, follow his
steps closely, carefully observe his pattern of life as a model to follow, not a
mysterious emotionalism with its basis in concepts not explicit in the sacred text, that's
for sure.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
What harmony with Christ does the kingdom hall teach?

That Christ is the way the truth and the life, that he is the head of the Christian
congregation, that he is King of Gods Kingdom, that we must imitate him, follow his
steps closely, carefully observe his pattern of life as a model to follow, not a
mysterious emotionalism with its basis in concepts not explicit in the sacred text, that's
for sure.

That is the general idea of any christian church. Not specifially the JW churches.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
That is the general idea of any christian church. Not specifially the JW churches.

yes, but so what? he asked the question and received the answer.

Originally posted by jaywill
There is really no contradiction between [b]James's view of justification and Paul's view of justification.

Paul (who authored 13 of the 27 New Testament books) says that he and Barnabus did not subject themselves to those "false brothers" preaching against a Gospel of justification by faith even for one hour -

" ... false brot entually, I will show why some people's view of faith in Christ is superfiscial.[/b]

Diversionary tactics Jaywill . Ploy used because your doctrine is flawed.
Your doctrine breeds greedy selfish Christians, not worthy of salvation.


Wiki says ..

Diversion may refer to:

diversion, a detour, especially of an airplane flight due to severe weather or mechanical failure, or of an ambulance from a fully occupied emergency room to one another nearby hospital
diversion, a distraction
diversion, a form of logical fallacy known as a general irrelevancy, a violation of sound reasoning
diversion, the rerouting of water from a river or lake for flood control, or as part of a water supply network for drinking water or irrigation (see Diversion dam)
Diversion, a British television film later adapted into the 1987 movie Fatal Attraction
Diversion program, criminal justice scheme usually for minor offenses
Diversionary tactic, also known as feint; a military deception designed to draw enemy strength away from a primary target
Pharmaceutical diversion, the diversion of licit drugs for illicit purposes
Product diversion, the sale of products in unintended markets
Yamaha Diversion, a motorcycle manufactured by Yamaha

Originally posted by Rajk999
Diversionary tactics Jaywill . Ploy used because your doctrine is flawed.
Your doctrine breeds greedy selfish Christians, not worthy of salvation.


Wiki says ..

Diversion may refer to:

diversion, a detour, especially of an airplane flight due to severe weather or mechanical failure, or of an ambulance from a fully occupied emergency roo ...[text shortened]... oducts in unintended markets
Yamaha Diversion, a motorcycle manufactured by Yamaha

Your doctrine breeds greedy selfish Christians, not worthy of salvation.

why do you say this? my objection to the teaching is that it may engender a kind of
disposition towards sinfulness because irrespective of the consequences of our actions
we are saved, under such circumstances one is free to do what one please safe in the
knowledge that forgiveness shall be received thus inducing a tendency towards
licentious behaviour unworthy of the Christ. In other words, it undermines
accountability.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes, but so what? he asked the question and received the answer.

I just commented. Any problem with that?
The thread belongs to all people participating in it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Your doctrine breeds greedy selfish Christians, not worthy of salvation.

why do you say this? my objection to the teaching is that it may engender a kind of
disposition towards sinfulness because irrespective of the consequences of our actions
we are saved, under such circumstances one is free to do what one please safe in the
knowledge tha ...[text shortened]...
licentious behaviour unworthy of the Christ. In other words, it undermines
accountability.

If there are no consequences to greed and selfishness then people so inclined will gravitate to that type of behavior, which is the opposite of what Christ preached.