1. Joined
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    25 Feb '14 02:591 edit
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

    - Soren Kierkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Feb '14 03:05
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    Because it is not the truth.
  3. Zugzwang
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    25 Feb '14 03:18
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
    Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

    How much can be known of the historical Jesus?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
  4. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    25 Feb '14 03:22
    "People understand me so little that they do not even understand when I complain
    of being misunderstood." -Søren Kierkegaard, Journals Feb. 1836 (wiki)
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Feb '14 03:54
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "People understand me so little that they do not even understand when I complain
    of being misunderstood." -Søren Kierkegaard, Journals Feb. 1836 (wiki)
    What was he misunderstood about that made him complain? Or was he just trying to back out of his heresy?
  6. Subscribermoonbus
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    25 Feb '14 12:36
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    Kierkegaard's position might be summarized as follows: on the one hand, he rejected all rational proofs of the objective truth of Christian dogma (it IS true, but it cannot be PROVEN by rational means, he maintained), but, on the other, he equally rejected the authority model of the Catholic Church.

    He tried to find a space (a philosophically defensible space) for Christian faith based neither on reason nor Church authority, but on what would later come to be called Existential grounds (see Sartre et al).

    Of course, for those who believe the Earth is a pancake at the centre of a universe created on 23 Oct 4004 BC, all of that is heresy...
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    25 Feb '14 12:591 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    C'mon ToO, I read your post very carefully this time. Smile.

    Nonsense. Utter sophisticated sounding nonsense.
    Paul as a pioneer into the depths of the experience of Jesus Christ pointed to Christ's all-inclusive ministry. His living, His death, His resurrection, His ascension were all emphasized.

    I think Soren Kierkegarrd here is probably telling us more about the wanderings of his own soul than providing insight into the New Testament.

    What respect I had for Kierkegaard is now pretty much adjusted to the more realistic. He had no idea what he was talking about in this instance.

    In my early spiritual life I tried to read some Kierkegaard because I had access to an extensive sophisticated library. I received nothing. And this revisit probably confirms my earlier experience.

    Thanks for this quotation.
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    25 Feb '14 13:05
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
    Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

    How much can be known of the historical Jesus?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
    As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
    Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.


    Every so often the Forum comes around to this theme. This is rehash, revisiting a oft repeated concept -

    "Jesus we like but Paul messed it all up."

    So it comes around again. "Let's see if we can take 13 books of the New Testament written by the apostle Paul and amputate them away from the New Testament and claim that we just champion the red letters in Matthew, Mark and Luke."

    Oh, usually the Gospel of John has to go too.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Feb '14 13:12
    Originally posted by sonship
    As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
    Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.


    Every so often the Forum comes around to this theme. This is rehash, revisiting a oft repeated concept -

    "Jesus we like but Paul messed it all up."

    So it comes around again. "Let's see if we c ...[text shortened]... n the red letters in Matthew, Mark and Luke."

    Oh, usually the Gospel of John has to go too.
    Was John to beloved by Jesus for them?
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    25 Feb '14 13:213 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Was John to beloved by Jesus for them?
    The skeptical say that John has to GO! Because John has his emphasis that Jesus is God.

    Now, I do have some things to read about Kierkegaard so as to better informed.

    I take no pleasure in denouncing a theologian who is at least very well known. I wish sometimes they truly deserved to be respected according to the truth of God's revelation.

    Anyway stand by or read something on Soren, because probably Soren is about to be defended strongly for his view above.
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    25 Feb '14 13:35
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    I think that there was no Christianity before Paul, he took it from an attempted reform of Judaism to a stand-alone religion (although still rooted) and made it accessible to the Gentile (along with John's contribution). On this analysis, Paul was an essential ingredient in delivering the religion based on Jesus Christ to all. As products of this work, how can anyone who counts themselves as "Christian" agree with Kierkegaard?

    That my non-theistic 2 bits.
  12. Territories Unknown
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    25 Feb '14 13:53
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals


    Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
    Kierkegaard, in my opinion, was akin to a theologian with Andy Kaufman-like tendencies.
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    26 Feb '14 21:071 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
    Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

    How much can be known of the historical Jesus?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
    The core of the recorded teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth are reasonably coherent and at times quite deep and profound. That a mythology was built around them which obscures and supercedes those teachings is tragic. If Christians followed the teachings of Jesus rather than the teachings of Paul and his followers, the world would be a much better place. Instead, by and large, Christianity is a religion of the self-centered, by the self-centered, for the self-centered.

    "Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart." - Thomas Jefferson to William Short, Monticello, 13 April 1820[1]

    Pasted from <http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/dupes-and-impostors-quotation>
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    26 Feb '14 21:11
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "People understand me so little that they do not even understand when I complain
    of being misunderstood." -Søren Kierkegaard, Journals Feb. 1836 (wiki)
    There doesn't seem to be any "misunderstanding" what Kierkegaard was saying in the quote provided in the OP. Though your quote seems like it likely would be applicable to those who follow Paul.
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    26 Feb '14 21:13
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Kierkegaard's position might be summarized as follows: on the one hand, he rejected all rational proofs of the objective truth of Christian dogma (it IS true, but it cannot be PROVEN by rational means, he maintained), but, on the other, he equally rejected the authority model of the Catholic Church.

    He tried to find a space (a philosophically defensible s ...[text shortened]... rth is a pancake at the centre of a universe created on 23 Oct 4004 BC, all of that is heresy...
    What Kierkegaard seems to be saying is that Christianity was corrupted starting with Paul and not just by the Catholic Church.
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