25 Feb 14
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"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
- Soren Kierkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
25 Feb 14
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBecause it is not the truth."In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
25 Feb 14
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneKierkegaard's position might be summarized as follows: on the one hand, he rejected all rational proofs of the objective truth of Christian dogma (it IS true, but it cannot be PROVEN by rational means, he maintained), but, on the other, he equally rejected the authority model of the Catholic Church."In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
He tried to find a space (a philosophically defensible space) for Christian faith based neither on reason nor Church authority, but on what would later come to be called Existential grounds (see Sartre et al).
Of course, for those who believe the Earth is a pancake at the centre of a universe created on 23 Oct 4004 BC, all of that is heresy...
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25 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneC'mon ToO, I read your post very carefully this time. Smile."In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
Nonsense. Utter sophisticated sounding nonsense.
Paul as a pioneer into the depths of the experience of Jesus Christ pointed to Christ's all-inclusive ministry. His living, His death, His resurrection, His ascension were all emphasized.
I think Soren Kierkegarrd here is probably telling us more about the wanderings of his own soul than providing insight into the New Testament.
What respect I had for Kierkegaard is now pretty much adjusted to the more realistic. He had no idea what he was talking about in this instance.
In my early spiritual life I tried to read some Kierkegaard because I had access to an extensive sophisticated library. I received nothing. And this revisit probably confirms my earlier experience.
Thanks for this quotation.
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25 Feb 14
The post that was quoted here has been removed
As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.
Every so often the Forum comes around to this theme. This is rehash, revisiting a oft repeated concept -
"Jesus we like but Paul messed it all up."
So it comes around again. "Let's see if we can take 13 books of the New Testament written by the apostle Paul and amputate them away from the New Testament and claim that we just champion the red letters in Matthew, Mark and Luke."
Oh, usually the Gospel of John has to go too.
25 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshipWas John to beloved by Jesus for them?As I recall, Leo Tolstoy believed that Paul distorted Jesus's teachings.
Jesuism is a movement that disagrees with Pauline Christianity.
Every so often the Forum comes around to this theme. This is rehash, revisiting a oft repeated concept -
"Jesus we like but Paul messed it all up."
So it comes around again. "Let's see if we c ...[text shortened]... n the red letters in Matthew, Mark and Luke."
Oh, usually the Gospel of John has to go too.
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25 Feb 14
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsThe skeptical say that John has to GO! Because John has his emphasis that Jesus is God.
Was John to beloved by Jesus for them?
Now, I do have some things to read about Kierkegaard so as to better informed.
I take no pleasure in denouncing a theologian who is at least very well known. I wish sometimes they truly deserved to be respected according to the truth of God's revelation.
Anyway stand by or read something on Soren, because probably Soren is about to be defended strongly for his view above.
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25 Feb 14
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI think that there was no Christianity before Paul, he took it from an attempted reform of Judaism to a stand-alone religion (although still rooted) and made it accessible to the Gentile (along with John's contribution). On this analysis, Paul was an essential ingredient in delivering the religion based on Jesus Christ to all. As products of this work, how can anyone who counts themselves as "Christian" agree with Kierkegaard?"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
That my non-theistic 2 bits.
25 Feb 14
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneKierkegaard, in my opinion, was akin to a theologian with Andy Kaufman-like tendencies."In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. [b]What Martin Luther in his reformation, failed to realize ...[text shortened]... rkegaard, The Journals
Why is the above so obvious to some Christians and not others?
26 Feb 14
1 edit
The post that was quoted here has been removedThe core of the recorded teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth are reasonably coherent and at times quite deep and profound. That a mythology was built around them which obscures and supercedes those teachings is tragic. If Christians followed the teachings of Jesus rather than the teachings of Paul and his followers, the world would be a much better place. Instead, by and large, Christianity is a religion of the self-centered, by the self-centered, for the self-centered.
"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart." - Thomas Jefferson to William Short, Monticello, 13 April 1820[1]
Pasted from <http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/dupes-and-impostors-quotation>
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThere doesn't seem to be any "misunderstanding" what Kierkegaard was saying in the quote provided in the OP. Though your quote seems like it likely would be applicable to those who follow Paul.
"People understand me so little that they do not even understand when I complain
of being misunderstood." -Søren Kierkegaard, Journals Feb. 1836 (wiki)
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by moonbusWhat Kierkegaard seems to be saying is that Christianity was corrupted starting with Paul and not just by the Catholic Church.
Kierkegaard's position might be summarized as follows: on the one hand, he rejected all rational proofs of the objective truth of Christian dogma (it IS true, but it cannot be PROVEN by rational means, he maintained), but, on the other, he equally rejected the authority model of the Catholic Church.
He tried to find a space (a philosophically defensible s ...[text shortened]... rth is a pancake at the centre of a universe created on 23 Oct 4004 BC, all of that is heresy...