Kierkegaard on Paul's Influence on Christianity

C'mon jaywill. Instead of addressing the germane point of my post, you went off on a tangent, made things up in your mind and addressed your own thoughts. As such, I'm not going to address much of what you've written here.

C'mon ToO, think exactly like me and have exactly the same opinion as me. It is, afterall, only normal. C'mon there.

I am still puzzled why you said you had no idea of what I was talking about when I summarized your other post. I thought you had amnesia or sleep walking. Oh well.

Actually what I'm telling you is that while He walked the Earth, JESUS repeatedly emphasized that HIS followers must keep HIS word, follow HIS commandments, etc.

Do you mean "Keep HIS word" and not the word He taught the apostles ?

Jesus certainly prayed not only for His immediate 12 disciples but for those who believed in Him because of their word. C'mon.

"And I do not ask concerning these only, but also concerning those who believe into Me through their word ..." (John 17:20)

Jesus taught that we had to humble ourselves and receive even a little child who came in His name, how much more then His sent apostles ?

"And whoever receives one such little choid because of My name, receives Me." (Matt. 18:5)

Since Jesus didn't WRITE anything, we are necessarily dependent upon His apostles. So why are you attempting to turn me away from the apostles in the name of keeping "HIS" word ?

Jesus told the disciples that THEY would carry out His message, all of it, to the world.

"And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46,47)

This is why we have the book of Acts. We can see the continuation of Christ's ministry through those whom He sent. C'mon, why are you trying to turn me away from His apostles under the guise of following "HIS" word ?

Acts says that the saints in the first genuine local church in Jerusalem continued steadfastly in the teaching and fellowship "of the apostles".

"And they continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles, in the breaking of bread and the prayers." (Acts 2:42)

Am I saying that the apostles were perfect and made no mistakes ? No, not at all. But by and large they balanced each other out, and we can see the seamless continuation of the best of Christ's earthly ministry continuing with the Holy Spirit in and upon the apostles and disciples.

Stephan was a faithful witness to the teaching of Jesus and became the first martyr because of it (Acts 7). He was not of the original 12 but was a deacon. His life manifested his faith and intouchness with the ascended Christ.

Priscilla and Acquilla were able to adjust and correct deficiencies in the teaching of the apostle Apollos .

[b]"And this man [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue. and when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him to themselves and and expounded the way of God to him more accurately." (Acts 18:26)

The point here is that the disciples could teach accurately what Jesus taught. And they could also recognize deficiencies. They were 2000 some years closer to the events then you and I were.

I think your emphasis on keeping "HIS" words is, seems to be an insinuation that we discard all but the red letters that you approve of in the synoptics.

Jesus said, in the red letters, that He would give the persecuted apostles what they should say and what they should speak. So why should I not listen closely?

Luke 21:15 - "For I will give you a mouth of wisdom and wisdom which all those opposing you will not be able to resist or refute."

Matt. 10:19 - "for it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you."

Mark 13:11b - " ... but whatever is given to you in that hour, speak that, for it is not you who are speaking; but the Holy Spirit."

Since Jesus Christ, and the Father and the Holy Spirit (as seen above), gave the apostles a mouth of wisdom what to speak which could not be refuted, especially under sore persecution, then why are you trying to convince me that I should discard the apostles ?

C'mon ToO. Your problem doesn't seem to be with the disciples but with Jesus Christ Himself.

sonship:
The oldest New Testament writings we have are the letters of Paul. Though historically the Gospel records happened prior to Paul's ministry, the writings of Paul are older documents.

Paul presents what HE RECEIVED and PASSED ON in the book which even critical scholars attribute to Paul, First Corinthians.

...

ToO:
This is exactly what Kierkegaard was talking about in the following:

Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner.

He does not. In fact He teaches of both. Here he told the disciples to be imitators of himself as he is of Jesus Christ -

"Be imitators of me, as I also am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1)

He also tells the Ephesians to be imitators of God:

"Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children." (Eph. 5:1)

He also tells the Philippians to have the mind of Christ -

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, ... " (Phil. 2:5)

Because as it should be Paul was living what he was preaching, he could exhort the believers to be imitators of himself -

"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern." (Phil. 3:17)

Notice that he includes "us" meaning he did not consider himself the ONLY one who was so walking in Christ and experiencing His reality.

Paul absolutely pointed his audience to Jesus Christ and did not neglect the Atoner. For only as the guilt of sin is removed can we have fellowship with God. And only looking away from ourselves to Jesus can we gain the victory through what He is.

Other comments will have to wait for latter. Time to go and enjoy my Lord Jesus with the saints.

Originally posted by sonship

C'mon jaywill. Instead of addressing the germane point of my post, you went off on a tangent, made things up in your mind and addressed your own thoughts. As such, I'm not going to address much of what you've written here.

C'mon ToO, think exactly like me and have exactly the same opinion as me. It is, afterall, only normal. C'mon there. ...[text shortened]... Other comments will have to wait for latter. Time to go and enjoy my Lord Jesus with the saints.

C'mon ToO, think exactly like me and have exactly the same opinion as me. It is, afterall, only normal. C'mon there.

Jaywill, the point was that rather than address the germane point of the my post, you instead went off on a tangent.

I am still puzzled why you said you had no idea of what I was talking about when I summarized your other post. I thought you had amnesia or sleep walking. Oh well.

Actually, from what I can tell, what you did was ascribe Kierkegaard's points to me. Surely you can understand the folly in that.

Do you mean "Keep HIS word" and not the word He taught the apostles ?

Yes, I meant "keep HIS word, follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.

Following are some examples:
John 14
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.

John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

John 6
53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]C'mon ToO, think exactly like me and have exactly the same opinion as me. It is, afterall, only normal. C'mon there.

Jaywill, the point was that rather than address the germane point of the my post, you instead went off on a tangent.

I am still puzzled why you said you had no idea of what I was talking about when I summarized your other po ...[text shortened]... ife; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.[/b]

sonship:

Do you mean "Keep HIS word" and not the word He taught the apostles ?

ToO:
Yes, I meant "keep HIS word, follow HIS commandments, continue in HIS word, etc.

Okay, you did understand what I was talking about but you want to distance yourself from Soren. Fine. Soren's opinion is not yours.

Now I like all your quotations. And if I understand your post correctly, either you or Soren, has an opinion that we should take the words of Christ, "HIS words" and not take the words spoken by the the apostles whom He sent with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The verses that I submitted from Acts shows that the first disciples in the church in Jerusalem continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles.

Now you may consider this as going off on a tangent. I do not. When the apostles transmitted the teaching of Christ to the disciples, of course the disciples followed Christ's words being passed on to them through the apostles.

Not only so, Christ continued speaking through the apostles -

Second Corinthians 13:3 - "Since you seek a proof of the Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you but is powerful in you."

Now I want you to pay very close attention and not dismiss this as a "tangent."

1.) Some of the skeptical Christians in the church in Corinth questioned Paul's apostolic authority. To be concise, Paul told them of the proof that Christ was speaking IN him.

Did you get that ? Jesus Christ was still SPEAKING IN PAUL.

"Since you seek a proof of the Christ who is speaking in me ..."

2.) Paul does not say that Christ is NOT in the Christians to WHOM He is speaking and that only Christ is speaking in him. Far from it. He reminds them that Christ is powerful IN THEM.

"Since you seek a proof of the Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you BUT IS POWERFUL IN YOU." (my emphasis).

Here's the picture. Jesus Christ is no more physically on the earth at this time. Yet Jesus Christ is distributed into the Christians on earth. He is still speaking in the apostles. But He is also speaking in the saints in the church in Corinth.

Actually, what Paul speaks from Christ is powerful because He is speaking the same thing in the hearts of the listeners to Paul. The Holy Spirit in them confirms that what Paul is speaking is what Christ is also speaking in their own hearts.

" ... Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you but powerful in you."

Why does Paul not just say "Jesus is powerful in ME the apostle. So you have to do whatever I say" ? He does not speak this way because Christ is both in Paul ministering and speaking AND in the audience confirming, agreeing, speaking the same thing in their own consciences.

Paul below reminds them that Jesus Christ is in THEM -

"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (v. 5)

Christ's words to be heard and obeyed are many more than what is recorded in the Gospels. Christ's words will include what you should do in traffic, how you should speak to your wife, how you should not react to the guy who just insulted you, how you should not look at what your flesh craves to gaze at. The words of Jesus Christ are millions upon millions of words in all of the daily lives of the Christians.

It is true that His instant up-to-date word to me this afternoon will be based on His words in the Gospels. He will not say something contradictory to what He has said in the Scriptures. But His words, His commandments are too, too numerous to be all written down.

So the saints, within whom Jesus Christ ALSO was, continued not only in the teaching of the apostles but in the fellowship as well. Their fellowship contained much of Christ's speaking to situations of their circumstances in their church life.

So when the Apostle John writes - "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4) John is speaking of many more instant moment by moment commandments of the indwelling Christ applied to specific situations than are recorded in the gospels.

His commandments will not contradict what He has said in His earthly ministry. But they will be many more words and commandments specific to billions of individual situations.

Since Christ is in the form as the Holy Spirit dwelling in the disciples after His resurrection and ascension, He continues to speak - leading them into all the truth -

"And when He [the Holy Spirit], the Spirit of reality comes , He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming." (John 16:13)

Notice that this Spirit of reality, this Holy Spirit behaves exactly the same way as the Son of God. The Son of God spoke only what He heard from the Father. The Spirit of reality is the Son in the form of the Holy Spirit, continuing to speak not from Himself but from what He hears from the Father.