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  1. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    05 Nov '09 13:22
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I think they're absolutely right on this.

    I don't see why they have to believe in any clairvoyant nor why they should encourage such gatherings when the result was leaving the basilica in a terrible state. If the priests did not see anything holy, despite being there, why should they encourage it?
  2. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    06 Nov '09 10:04 / 3 edits
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    This is just the typical Protestant rant: much ado about nothing.

    Q. Who decides what is classed as "Holy"?

    Obviously, what is holy to a Hindu might not be holy to a Catholic and vice-versa. So I don't see why the Church is forced to believe any claim about this. Especially, when it had its own representatives there who saw nothing holy. I also don't see why educated people are more credible. Does education help to determine if the "sun is spinning" or not?

    On what basis does he differentiate
    On the fact that most decided to desecrate the basilica and have little respect for the place which they would have considered holy otherwise.

    You don't think think that there is a contradiction
    I think a little common sense is required here. Some guy decides to make predictions of an apparition. A lot of people come, the basilica is left in a sad state and the priests see nothing happening. Why would they not discourage this? If those that come in search of cure from illness come with more respect towards a place that Catholics consider holy, then I don't see any contradiction.
  3. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    06 Nov '09 11:17
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    There was no Church announcement denouncing the tree stump in Limerick?!
  4. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    06 Nov '09 13:13 / 1 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Your culture has a Protestant/Anglican background and this biases you against Catholicism. I've seen the same with atheists coming from Orthodox Christian cultures.

    Can you explain "why" the basilica is a red herring? And how you can know the "true" motives? Your answer to my points is just this assertion?

    Can you possibly know what proportion of those attending were Catholic faithful or just curious about the prophecy?

    I see no disdain. He clearly separates those that visit the shrine regularly due to faith and those that just came this time looking for a miracle or a story.

    This "threat to a monopoly" is the typical Protestant biased crap portraying Catholic priests as power hungry and caring less about God than themselves.

    Did the tree stump in Co Limerick lead to the desecration of a basilica? The Church did express skepticism, in case you don't know about it:
    Spokesman: "Church's response to phenomena of this type is one of great scepticism."
  5. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    06 Nov '09 15:19 / 1 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I speak it from experience. I've seen that image of Catholicism painted in both Orthodox countries where I've lived in and I see it now here in England.

    You may claim all you want, but in the end, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill and attacking the Catholic Church because your perception of their priests is about keeping power and maintaining monopoly so you interpret their actions accordingly.

    Maybe it's just a coincidence that you fit the pattern. But the fact remains that you do.

    Anyway, if you have anything to say about everything else that I've said beyond that first line would be nice.
  6. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    07 Nov '09 10:43
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I didn't claim you were a Protestant anywhere. I said your opinions are influenced by the general view of Catholicism in England (my comment about culture) and that your rant fits the classical Protestant image of Catholic priests as power-hungry or money-grabbing weasels.

    Now stop acting like an offended virgin and get back to the points I made (which included pointing out at least on false claim of yours). I'll do a list of what you need to explain:

    - Why the desecration is a red herring.
    - How you know the "true" motives of the priests when they don't seem to be in accordance with what they say.
    - How can you distinguish between curious bystanders and faithful better than the priests in the basilica.
    - Why the fact that the Church did announce it was skeptical of the tree stump doesn't change your opinion about claimed hypocrisy.
  7. 07 Nov '09 18:42
    Out of interest, how can a spherical object of uniform colour and brightness (as seen by the human eye) be seen to spin?
  8. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    07 Nov '09 18:57
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Out of interest, how can a spherical object of uniform colour and brightness (as seen by the human eye) be seen to spin?
    If you look at it long enough, your head will spin. Since all movement is relative, it's just a question of looking long enough.

    But this view could be influenced by my upbringing in a Catholic country.
  9. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Nov '09 09:38
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Hilarious. And you say your view of the Catholic Church isn't Protestant-biased?

    The Church does NOT have to accept ALL phenomena as religious. It's such a ridiculous claim that I don't even know where to start. So if I say I saw Jesus in my feces, the Church has to accept it? Are they hypocrites because they distance themselves from some phenomena claimed to be religious (by me) and they "profit enormously" from religious phenomena? I think you're just squinting too hard to see something.

    If Catholic priests suddenly discovered honesty, the Church would close tomorrow.
    And I'm the bigot? This is the typical Protestant stereotype of Catholic priests. That you even fail to recognize is more evidence of your bias.

    Do curious bystanders bring rosary beads?
    This is just deflection. Did they all bring rosary beads? Obviously not. How many did? The question remains unanswered.

    Can the Church preach both faith and reason, without self-contradiction?
    The Church of today has taught of faith and reason as being good complements and poor substitutes. There is no contradiction is accepting some things by faith and denying others through reason.

    How can Archbishop Neary on one hand demand that Knock retains its 'authentic identity' and on the other ignore the plethora of tacky religious memorabilia and souvenir shops that line the main street in Knock?
    LOL! You're really clutching at straws here, aren't you? I don't see much harm there or how the shops in the main street of Knock have anything to do with this.
  10. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Nov '09 10:48 / 1 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    A 'clairvoyant' passing the hat for a collection that doesn't benefit the Church, the Shrine nor the faithful? Of course he is to be condemned as a charlatan.
    And you know Why can't they simply see a charlatan and say so? After all, it's obvious to me that he is one.

    The only reason is that you're a bigot (and have the gall to call me one!) who sees Catholic priests as dishonest (your claim above). And you take this as an axiomatic truth from which you derive your (sad) conclusions.

    Why accept this by faith and not the sun spinning in the sky? Which is the more exceptional phenomena?
    I'll repeat: It is not about how "exceptional" the phenomena is. The question is whether they believe it happened or not! And the priest is under no obligation to believe everything.
  11. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Nov '09 13:07 / 1 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I repeat: It's not a contradiction. The church has never claimed ALL unlikely phenomena are acceptable and actually many times has created commissions that investigate claims of miracles.

    Having faith is not about being gullible about anything that is claimed to be divine, nor is stressing out the importance of reason about renouncing faith.
  12. 09 Nov '09 13:17
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    I am sure they have reasons for accepting or rejecting or remaining agnostic on any phenomena. The only question is whether those reasons are the ones that you are guessing they are (money, self benefit etc) or whether they are other reasons. You are not doing a very good job at showing that your preferred set of reasons are the primary ones - if anything you seem to be claiming that there can be no reasons other than arbitrary ones and if the results seem to benefit the Church then they must be cheating.

    It is my understanding that the Catholic Church almost never declares any phenomena to be undoubtedly genuine.

    I fully agree that we should do away with superstitious nonsense, but poor arguments wont get us very far in that direction.
  13. 09 Nov '09 13:35
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Entirely sensible. The Catholic authorities have for a long time sought to distance the Church from so-called apparitions. One of the most famous ones is the apparition at Medjugorje. These kind of apparitions quickly develop into a cult. In the case of Medjugorje, the parish priest claimed that Mary herself dictated a set of prayers. While bishops must accept the possibility of Marian apparitions and angelic visitations (there is after all a long tradition, not only in Knock but more famously at Fatima), bishops have to be wary that religious fakes and the mentally unbalanced do not lead Catholics astray. Just consider this:
  14. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Nov '09 21:11 / 2 edits
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    What point remains? The Catholic Church is part of a religion that is based on the miracles and the supernatural. This is true of all Christian denominations because no Christian Church that believes in a historical Jesus can deny the supernatural because Jesus is allegedly part of it.

    But now you come on your high horse and accuse them of asking people to be rational against an obvious charlatan. Oh, what hypocrites they are for not believing this particular claim. Really?

    The thing is that the Protestant money-grubbing vision of Catholicism is too imprinted in your head and you interpret this trifle case under the money-grubbing light. But the fact remains that you have no way of knowing the "true" motive that you claim to know.
  15. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    09 Nov '09 21:18
    Look, here come some Morris dancers!