Knock Knock

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I think they're absolutely right on this.

I don't see why they have to believe in any clairvoyant nor why they should encourage such gatherings when the result was leaving the basilica in a terrible state. If the priests did not see anything holy, despite being there, why should they encourage it?

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This is just the typical Protestant rant: much ado about nothing.

Q. Who decides what is classed as "Holy"?

Obviously, what is holy to a Hindu might not be holy to a Catholic and vice-versa. So I don't see why the Church is forced to believe any claim about this. Especially, when it had its own representatives there who saw nothing holy. I also don't see why educated people are more credible. Does education help to determine if the "sun is spinning" or not?

On what basis does he differentiate
On the fact that most decided to desecrate the basilica and have little respect for the place which they would have considered holy otherwise.

You don't think think that there is a contradiction
I think a little common sense is required here. Some guy decides to make predictions of an apparition. A lot of people come, the basilica is left in a sad state and the priests see nothing happening. Why would they not discourage this? If those that come in search of cure from illness come with more respect towards a place that Catholics consider holy, then I don't see any contradiction.

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There was no Church announcement denouncing the tree stump in Limerick?!

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Your culture has a Protestant/Anglican background and this biases you against Catholicism. I've seen the same with atheists coming from Orthodox Christian cultures.

Can you explain "why" the basilica is a red herring? And how you can know the "true" motives? Your answer to my points is just this assertion?

Can you possibly know what proportion of those attending were Catholic faithful or just curious about the prophecy?

I see no disdain. He clearly separates those that visit the shrine regularly due to faith and those that just came this time looking for a miracle or a story.

This "threat to a monopoly" is the typical Protestant biased crap portraying Catholic priests as power hungry and caring less about God than themselves.

Did the tree stump in Co Limerick lead to the desecration of a basilica? The Church did express skepticism, in case you don't know about it:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0710/limerick.html
Spokesman: "Church's response to phenomena of this type is one of great scepticism."

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I speak it from experience. I've seen that image of Catholicism painted in both Orthodox countries where I've lived in and I see it now here in England.

You may claim all you want, but in the end, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill and attacking the Catholic Church because your perception of their priests is about keeping power and maintaining monopoly so you interpret their actions accordingly.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that you fit the pattern. But the fact remains that you do.

Anyway, if you have anything to say about everything else that I've said beyond that first line would be nice.

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I didn't claim you were a Protestant anywhere. I said your opinions are influenced by the general view of Catholicism in England (my comment about culture) and that your rant fits the classical Protestant image of Catholic priests as power-hungry or money-grabbing weasels.

Now stop acting like an offended virgin and get back to the points I made (which included pointing out at least on false claim of yours). I'll do a list of what you need to explain:

- Why the desecration is a red herring.
- How you know the "true" motives of the priests when they don't seem to be in accordance with what they say.
- How can you distinguish between curious bystanders and faithful better than the priests in the basilica.
- Why the fact that the Church did announce it was skeptical of the tree stump doesn't change your opinion about claimed hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Starrman
Out of interest, how can a spherical object of uniform colour and brightness (as seen by the human eye) be seen to spin?

If you look at it long enough, your head will spin. Since all movement is relative, it's just a question of looking long enough.

But this view could be influenced by my upbringing in a Catholic country.