1. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    24 Apr '10 15:37
    "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee" (Abraham 2:8)

    How do you guys interpret this? Does it mean that God knows everything that is going to happen from start to end of human existence?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Apr '10 16:03
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee" (Abraham 2:8)

    How do you guys interpret this? Does it mean that God knows everything that is going to happen from start to end of human existence?
    There are different levels of "God".
    You could say the highest level knows every minute detail.
    I still think there is room for free will to change the course of destiny, but it will only be altered slightly...
  3. Standard memberAgerg
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    24 Apr '10 16:394 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    There are different levels of "God".
    You could say the highest level knows every minute detail.
    I still think there is room for free will to change the course of destiny, but it will only be altered slightly...
    This one always causes me trouble...suppose at the highest level, your god knows every minute detail. That is suppose, from your god's temporal perspective, it is true he knows I chose to do A at some time t_0 on my timeline.

    Now suppose I am living out this timeline and I reach the point t_0 where I (with supposed free will) am about to choose A or ¬A (not A). Precisely how do I choose ¬A without contradicting that your god knows I chose A?
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Apr '10 19:05
    Originally posted by Agerg
    This one always causes me trouble...suppose at the highest level, your god knows every minute detail. That is suppose, from your god's temporal perspective, it is true he knows I chose to do A at some time t_0 on my timeline.

    Now suppose I am living out this timeline and I reach the point t_0 where I (with supposed free will) am about to choose A or ¬A (not A). Precisely how do I choose ¬A without contradicting that your god knows I chose A?
    I'm guessing that God is faster than the speed of thought.
    how long is it say from now to the big bang. So many millions of years? The system of counting and mathematics was just a part of human evolution so it could get back to its origon. To understand the mathematical principles of the universe and to know that time is merely an act of measurement.
    Now given that all returns back to the One, there is no "making decisions" within the framework of "time".Its just an illusion , so this illusion is basically going from the "No" to the "Yes". And we all reach the "Yes" in the end because that is the way things work basically.
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    24 Apr '10 19:22
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm guessing that God is faster than the speed of thought.
    how long is it say from now to the big bang. So many millions of years? The system of counting and mathematics was just a part of human evolution so it could get back to its origon. To understand the mathematical principles of the universe and to know that time is merely an act of measurement. ...[text shortened]... And we all reach the "Yes" in the end because that is the way things work basically.
    I'm guessing that God is faster than the speed of thought.
    ok...So you're merely saying here that given any interval of time required on my part for the machinery of my brain to develop a thought, it is for a greater length of time than your god's reaction to it's construction...I can roll with that for now.

    how long is it say from now to the big bang. So many millions of years? The system of counting and mathematics was just a part of human evolution so it could get back to its origon. To understand the mathematical principles of the universe and to know that time is merely an act of measurement.
    What are you trying to say here? That one may consider time as static from another perspective? That time is cyclic?? Something else???

    Now given that all returns back to the One, there is no "making decisions" within the framework of "time".Its just an illusion , so this illusion is basically going from the "No" to the "Yes". And we all reach the "Yes" in the end because that is the way things work basically
    Please clarify the former so I can make sense of this πŸ™‚
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    24 Apr '10 19:36
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee" (Abraham 2:8)

    How do you guys interpret this? Does it mean that God knows everything that is going to happen from start to end of human existence?
    What is this quoted from?
  7. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    24 Apr '10 20:04
    Originally posted by galveston75
    What is this quoted from?
    It's from the Book of Abraham, which is a text of somewhat questionable origins. But it's well regarded by some sects of Christianity.
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    24 Apr '10 23:10
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    It's from the Book of Abraham, which is a text of somewhat questionable origins. But it's well regarded by some sects of Christianity.
    Still a good question. So if God does know all in the future, why did he create man if he knew they would sin and bring all our problems we now have on us?
  9. Standard membermenace71
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    25 Apr '10 05:06
    Originally posted by galveston75
    What is this quoted from?
    Why? If it is not the New World Translation will you reject it?






    Manny
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    25 Apr '10 08:38
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]I'm guessing that God is faster than the speed of thought.
    ok...So you're merely saying here that given any interval of time required on my part for the machinery of my brain to develop a thought, it is for a greater length of time than your god's reaction to it's construction...I can roll with that for now.

    how long is it say from now to the big ...[text shortened]... hings work basically
    Please clarify the former so I can make sense of this πŸ™‚[/b]
    I really dont know if you are going to make sense of this. I haven't. But I know what its not...
    Time IS AN ACT OF MEASUREMENT. 1 second. 1 million years. God is outside of time..and Ihope you know by now I dont believe in god.
    You can repeat karma ad infinitum.The finest and most noble of karmas. But it is karma none the less.
    If you want it to make sense, take these words-"Don't give a f***". Just follow your dharma wherever it may lead. And be prepared for some strange places...
    (Sorry ,I'm listening to the Strokes and they are feeding me words)

    Time is static from another perspective..yes. Time is cyclic.Yes .Something else? Yes.
    That last part is taken from "A Waking life". Everyone is asked the question-"Do you want to be one with God?"...and everyone is like"no...not right now..I've got this and that and whatever". But all "souls" get to the "Yes" in the end.Right?
    Thats evolution. Physical, not just biological.

    I sincerely hope I have clarified my viewpoint,thnx for the smileyπŸ™‚
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    25 Apr '10 13:324 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I really dont know if you are going to make sense of this. I haven't. But I know what its not...
    Time IS AN ACT OF MEASUREMENT. 1 second. 1 million years. God is outside of time..and Ihope you know by now I dont believe in god.
    You can repeat karma ad infinitum.The finest and most noble of karmas. But it is karma none the less.
    If you want it to mak logical.

    I sincerely hope I have clarified my viewpoint,thnx for the smileyπŸ™‚
    Still no sense...to put it another way, lets imagine another word to use instead of time which encapsulates the notion of:
    *events being able to happen such that they don't all happen at once*
    either from some god's perspective or from ours. Feel free to invent this word, articulate what you mean by it with, and we'll stick with that.

    I need clear definitions karoly aczel, not poetic vagueness. πŸ™‚
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    25 Apr '10 16:31
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Still no sense...to put it another way, lets imagine another word to use instead of time which encapsulates the notion of:
    *events being able to happen such that they don't all happen at once*
    either from some god's perspective or from ours. Feel free to invent this word, articulate what you mean by it with, and we'll stick with that.

    I need clear definitions karoly aczel, not poetic vagueness. πŸ™‚
    Ya, I hear ya.
    I have mentioned before that my brain is like ...I dont know ... fudge or something. The words used to roll of the tongue and now I just blab like...well lets just say I'm not as eloquent as I once was. I'm only 35 mind you.

    I think the point you have raised here is the crux of a lot of what I was trying to get at.
    Are "events" "spaced" out ? or do they all happen at once?
    Is there room here for more than one view of 'time'?
  13. Standard memberAgerg
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    25 Apr '10 20:463 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ya, I hear ya.
    I have mentioned before that my brain is like ...I dont know ... fudge or something. The words used to roll of the tongue and now I just blab like...well lets just say I'm not as eloquent as I once was. I'm only 35 mind you.

    I think the point you have raised here is the crux of a lot of what I was trying to get at.
    Are "events" "sp ? or do they all happen at once?
    Is there room here for more than one view of 'time'?
    See, from our perspective we experience events not happening at once, for example, I had to wait until you replied to my last post before I could post this. Now one could suppose that 'time' is multi-dimensional; by that I mean some god lives out it's own separate timeline and from it's perspective perhaps all things have happened at once on our timeline. That is to say, our entire timeline is laid open for it to peruse from the beginning to it's end so to speak.

    If one wanted to adopt this point of view however, then this static timeline is contingent on a god actually creating a universe for events to take place; furthermore if from some god's perspective all events happen at once then immediately upon causing the universe to exist it also knows every event which happens within said universe which in effect is tantamount to saying this god causes all of the events which happen by the very act of creating the universe; destroying any notion of free will. (This whole system fails when you consider the supposed interventions of god which take place after the creation of the universe of course).

    Perhaps you have a different take though.
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    25 Apr '10 22:00
    Originally posted by Agerg
    See, from our perspective we experience events not happening at once, for example, I had to wait until you replied to my last post before I could post this. Now one could suppose that 'time' is multi-dimensional; by that I mean some god lives out it's own separate timeline and from it's perspective perhaps all things have happened at once on our timeline. That ...[text shortened]... fter the creation of the universe of course).

    Perhaps you have a different take though.
    Actually I have quite a similar take.

    What is free will if all possibilities are already known?

    Now just cause the sun came up, and I could notice it dawning doesn't mean that viewed from another perspective the sun isn't always "up" .So I am trying to draw parrallels with the flat earth theory , for example.


    apparently , if you "become small enough",(I really dont know how), time ceases. But still it continues for others (?). Yes, i know, sounds like airy fairy poetic vagueness, but I am trying , and will continue to try to communicate what I believe to be true.
    Imagine. Life outside of the effects of time. Outside the effects of decay and physicality. Wow!!
    And even to utter the most abstract poetic vagueness about this and other transcendental notions is like...I dont know...changing reality.
    But not just the reality of the Zen masters this time. This time we are all the Zen masters. We no longer have to go in solitude into caves. The earth is being cleansed. We just gotta love. Enjoy the ride and understand the basic nature we all share. Not the differences.

    So I babble and play the clown on the forum here. I am playing my part. I am a piece of a jigsaw.
    Do you believe in mass enlightenment? Like God-conciousness?
    If so, how many do you think will make it? (I'll stop now so you can respond before going furthur)πŸ™‚
  15. Standard memberAgerg
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    25 Apr '10 22:512 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Actually I have quite a similar take.

    What is free will if all possibilities are already known?

    Now just cause the sun came up, and I could notice it dawning doesn't mean that viewed from another perspective the sun isn't always "up" .So I am trying to draw parrallels with the flat earth theory , for example.


    apparently , if you "become small ny do you think will make it? (I'll stop now so you can respond before going furthur)πŸ™‚
    Hmm...I can answer your penultimate question:
    Do you believe in mass enlightenment? Like God-conciousness?
    With a no! πŸ™‚
    I cannot make much sense of the rest of your post unfortunately.

    Perhaps it is best to state my reason for joining in with this thread; that being I wish to try and find some hypothetical model which without inducing any contradiction explains how some god knows we did/will do X whilst we are yet to choose X or ¬X (given that, logically, choosing ¬X will make it not true he correctly saw us do X (contradicting omniscience)).

    When you talk about 'existing outside of time' precisely what does this mean, and more importantly, how do events occur (such as god deciding to make a universe after some point when there did not exist that universe, say)?
    In other words, how do things get done when there is no temporal separation between having done nothing and having done something?? πŸ˜•
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