10 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Mark Adkins1st: why the curiosity?
So, when Lazarus was brought back from the dead, had his soul been in Heaven or Hell?
2nd: the text is silent in the passage, therefore one could only deduce the answer from other passages in the Bible.
Possible "parable" question: did heaven exist at the time, specifically before the death and resurrection of Jesus?
serious thoughts from others?
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by Big MacSince Jesus speaks of the other Lazarus and Abraham enjoying themselves in Paradise before
1st: why the curiosity?
2nd: the text is silent in the passage, therefore one could only deduce the answer from other passages in the Bible.
Possible "parable" question: did heaven exist at the time, specifically before the death and resurrection of Jesus?
serious thoughts from others?
His death, I'd say that it would be theologically unsound to say that Heaven didn't exist before
the Resurrection.
Nemesio
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by Big MacBecause it is an interesting thought experiment that raises a number of issues.
1st: why the curiosity?
2nd: the text is silent in the passage, therefore one could only deduce the answer from other passages in the Bible.
Is the Bible your only source of information?
Possible "parable" question: did heaven exist at the time, specifically before the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Well the real question is whether or not heaven is a physical place in this universe and whether or not it is part of our time line at all.
I wonder what knightmeister thinks.
serious thoughts from others?
Suppose Lazarus was in Hell.
Jesus brings back to life someone who clearly deserved to go to hell.
Does he get a second chance to repent and get to heaven?
Did he learn in hell that God did in fact exist and Jesus was his son etc etc?
Suppose Lazarus was in Heaven.
Surely bringing him back to life can be seen as punishment not the wonderful miracle it is portrayed as in the Bible.
Suppose he was in Limbo.
Well I suppose the above two cases still partially apply depending on whether or not God had decided whether he was destined for heaven or hell.
The real question is why Jesus brought him back to life. Could it be:
1. Showing off.
2. To help people who cared for him / depended on him.
3. To give him another chance at repenting etc.
Since not many people come back to life and the story got recorded in the Bible, I have to say that 1. is the most likely to be the main reason.
10 Apr 08
I don't believe time exists in the "afterlife". Therefore, I don't think it is given that Lazerous experienced anything between the time of his first passing and the time of his being brought back to life. Recognizing that God and heaven do not experience time the way we understand it may help you understand other passages in the Bible.
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by NemesioI'm not sure the Lazarus who was raised from the dead, and the tax collector Jesus told a story about are the same person. There is nothing in the text to suggest that they are. Perhaps, like Jesus, Lazarus is common name. The Lazarus who was brought back from the dead was the brother of Mary and Martha and a friend of Jesus and the disciples.
Since Jesus speaks of the other Lazarus and Abraham enjoying themselves in Paradise before
His death, I'd say that it would be theologically unsound to say that Heaven didn't exist before
the Resurrection.
Nemesio
Also, are Heaven and Paradise synonymous?
How is Abraham's Bosom and Gehenna related to these ideas?
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat do you mean by "source of information?"
Because it is an interesting thought experiment that raises a number of issues.
[b]2nd: the text is silent in the passage, therefore one could only deduce the answer from other passages in the Bible.
Is the Bible your only source of information?
Possible "parable" question: did heaven exist at the time, specifically before the death and res ...[text shortened]... ory got recorded in the Bible, I have to say that 1. is the most likely to be the main reason.
The story, I believe, is only recorded in the Bible. But, of course, there are numerous commentaries on the passage and on heaven, hell, paradise, etc.
I, too, would be interested in what knightmeister has to say, but to me honest, I get a little confused when he starts talking about God's time-line verses our time-line. We've discussed it before in relation to God's foreknowledge and predestination versus free-will. But, that's another thread.
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by dinosaurusLet me put it this way: Did Lazarus' soul cease to exist when his earthly body died?
I don't believe time exists in the "afterlife". Therefore, I don't think it is given that Lazerous experienced anything between the time of his first passing and the time of his being brought back to life. Recognizing that God and heaven do not experience time the way we understand it may help you understand other passages in the Bible.
If not, then it must have experienced something. What?
If so, how could a newly created soul genuinely have the same identity as the old one?
Presumably each particular form of Christian theology adhered to at least circumscribes the possibilities. I know that Protestants (the ones I'm familiar with, e.g., Baptists, etc.) deny the existence of "Limbo" -- that seems to be a Catholic construct -- and preach that souls either go to Heaven or Hell upon death. Seventh Day Adventists seem to believe that the dead enter a kind of absolute sleep or state of complete insensibility; I'm not sure it makes sense, theologically speaking, to talk about souls which exist yet are completely insensible, but I'm not here to argue, just to see what kind of answers I get.
For the record, I'm an atheist, and a solipsist as well.
11 Apr 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsThe Roman Church has essentially renounced Her belief in limbo, just so you know, saying that it
I know that Protestants (the ones I'm familiar with, e.g., Baptists, etc.) deny the existence of "Limbo" -- that seems to be a Catholic construct -- and preach that souls either go to Heaven or Hell upon death
was never an official dogma of Her teachings.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=17813
I'm not sure that Protestant churches deny the existence of limbo as a matter of faith, although
I'm sure that they don't preach it from the pulpit.
Nemesio
11 Apr 08
Originally posted by NemesioThanks. After reading the news story, I see that I actually meant Purgatory in my reference to Protestant teachings.
The Roman Church has essentially renounced Her belief in limbo, just so you know, saying that it
was never an official dogma of Her teachings.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=17813
I'm not sure that Protestant churches deny the existence of limbo as a matter of faith, although
I'm sure that they don't preach it from the pulpit.
Nemesio
11 Apr 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsAh. Yes, the liturgical Protestants make an absolute rejection of the 'Romish' doctrine of Purgatory.
Thanks. After reading the news story, I see that I actually meant Purgatory in my reference to Protestant teachings.
I don't know about the Calvinists or Anabaptist derivatives, though.
Nemesio
11 Apr 08
Originally posted by Big Mac
I'm not sure the Lazarus who was raised from the dead, and the tax collector Jesus told a story about are the same person. There is nothing in the text to suggest that they are. Perhaps, like Jesus, Lazarus is common name. The Lazarus who was brought back from the dead was the brother of Mary and Martha and a friend of Jesus and the disciples.
I said 'the other Lazarus.' How could you think I was suggesting they were the same person?
Also, are Heaven and Paradise synonymous?
Why wouldn't they be? What reason would we have to reject equivalence between the two?
And, regardless, Jesus' statement makes it clear that before the Sacrifice, there was a place
other than Hell for the righteous to go, even if it's an intermediate step before Heaven.
Nemesio
11 Apr 08
Originally posted by Nemesio'Popish', my dear fellow, 'popish'. Positively whiffy with incense from morning 'til night.
Ah. Yes, the liturgical Protestants make an absolute rejection of the 'Romish' doctrine of Purgatory.
I don't know about the Calvinists or Anabaptist derivatives, though.
Nemesio
11 Apr 08
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Originally posted by Mark AdkinsActually, I was referring specifically to Article XXII in the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion which are
'Popish', my dear fellow, 'popish'. Positively whiffy with incense from morning 'til night.
essentially creedal statements of faith for Anglicans:
Of Purgatory. The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as
well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and
grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
Nemesio
