Originally posted by Nemesio
Since Jesus speaks of the other Lazarus and Abraham enjoying themselves in Paradise before
His death, I'd say that it would be theologically unsound to say that Heaven didn't exist before
the Resurrection.

Nemesio

One would also wonder about any references to it in the old Testament - including where God and his angels resided. A lot of Christians consider heaven to be 'being with God'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
One would also wonder about any references to it in the old Testament - including where God and his angels resided. A lot of Christians consider heaven to be 'being with God'.

I can think of only two references in the Bible in which a person was clearly in a celestial
place:

http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+5

Verse 24: Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

This precedes a long, long line of x died, y died, z died, and is followed by a few more
a died, b died, c died. Generally deviations signify a difference in belief, and the idea that
God took Enoch directly to Him into Heaven is a pre-Christian notion.

The other text is more explicit, from II Kings 2:11:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%202:1-12

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

I'll bet there are more, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
Let me put it this way: Did Lazarus' soul cease to exist when his earthly body died?

If not, then it must have experienced something. What?

If so, how could a newly created soul genuinely have the same identity as the old one?

Presumably each particular form of Christian theology adhered to at least circumscribes the possibilities. I kno ...[text shortened]... e what kind of answers I get.

For the record, I'm an atheist, and a solipsist as well.

I do not think his soul would have ceased to exist. As you say, a new soul would have been needed to take his place, which seems incongruent. I do not see why for him, or any other soul raised from the dead, it would be necessary for the soul to have been acquainted with either heaven or hell. There is good reason to believe time does not exist beyond our earthly experience.

I appreciate your participation in our civil discussion. It is uncommon for me to experience such on the Internet.

Originally posted by dinosaurus
I do not think his soul would have ceased to exist. As you say, a new soul would have been needed to take his place, which seems incongruent. I do not see why for him, or any other soul raised from the dead, it would be necessary for the soul to have been acquainted with either heaven or hell. There is good reason to believe time does not exist beyond ...[text shortened]... articipation in our civil discussion. It is uncommon for me to experience such on the Internet.

Given the premises that: (a) Lazarus' body was dead; (b) Lazarus' soul was not present in his dead body; (c) Lazarus' soul continued to exist when it was not present in his dead body; (d) Lazarus' disembodied soul was not wandering the Earth and did not exist on any earthly plane (e.g., on another planet); then it seems logically necessary to me to conclude that Lazarus' soul existed in some non-earthly environment. The question then becomes, what non-earthly environment did Lazarus' disembodied soul exist in? The question of whether it existed there "outside of time", or for "a single moment of time" or for some alternative period of time, is both separate and immaterial: if there was no existential discontinuity, then his soul must have had another environment. Presumably it was a spiritual environment. If so, what was its nature?

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
Let me put it this way: Did Lazarus' soul cease to exist when his earthly body died?

If not, then it must have experienced something. What?

If so, how could a newly created soul genuinely have the same identity as the old one?

Presumably each particular form of Christian theology adhered to at least circumscribes the possibilities. I kno ...[text shortened]... e what kind of answers I get.

For the record, I'm an atheist, and a solipsist as well.

Two things I am not clear on here.
Supposing the bible story of Lazarus is true, didn't Jesus say that he was not dead, but just sleeping? He did not call out "Lazarus, come back to life" but rather called "Lazarus, come forth"

Secondly, if you are a solipsist, why are you inviting other peoples opinions?

Originally posted by muppyman
Two things I am not clear on here.
Supposing the bible story of Lazarus is true, didn't Jesus say that he was not dead, but just sleeping? He did not call out "Lazarus, come back to life" but rather called "Lazarus, come forth"

Secondly, if you are a solipsist, why are you inviting other peoples opinions?

First, I don't suppose it's true. I am merely taking it as a working premise in order to ask a question.

Second, I am not inviting other people's opinions since there are no other people.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
First, I don't suppose it's true. I am merely taking it as a working premise in order to ask a question.

Second, I am not inviting other people's opinions since there are no other people.

You take it as a working premise in order to ask a question of whom? (since there no other people)
I too am an atheist, and I might have enjoyed being a solipsist also, but that would mean there would be two of us, neither of whom could have existed to the other, thus cancelling out both of us.
What an interesting scenario, and I can visualise poor old Lazarus, standing there all alone, having been released from a supposed death, and suddenly realizing that he still didn't exist.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
So, when Lazarus was brought back from the dead, had his soul been in Heaven or Hell?

I don't believe he was in either at the time since I dont' believe any
of us are in either at this point in time.
Kelly

Originally posted by muppyman
You take it as a working premise in order to ask a question of whom? (since there no other people)
I too am an atheist, and I might have enjoyed being a solipsist also, but that would mean there would be two of us, neither of whom could have existed to the other, thus cancelling out both of us.
What an interesting scenario, and I can visualise poor old L ...[text shortened]... having been released from a supposed death, and suddenly realizing that he still didn't exist.

Funny, but I've seen "people" ask questions to so-called magic eight balls that they buy in novelty shops. Surely they don't believe that a piece of fluid-filled plastic is sentient, much less a person? As for me and my motives, I could explain them, but there is, after all, nobody to explain them to (aside from myself -- and I already know them): and beyond that, I'm discinlined to in the present instance. As someone else is reported to have said, my ways are not your ways...and my word that goes out from my mouth will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
Funny, but I've seen "people" ask questions to so-called magic eight balls that they buy in novelty shops. Surely they don't believe that a piece of fluid-filled plastic is sentient, much less a person? As for me and my motives, I could explain them, but there is, after all, nobody to explain them to (aside from myself -- and I already know them): and ...[text shortened]... to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

"Cast your bread upon the waters and it shall return to you after many days", hope you enjoy soggy bread.
As for you and your motives, "and so say all of us(Legion, for we are many) ... Enjoy your solitude, you certainly are unique, just like all the rest of us are. 🙂

Originally posted by muppyman
"Cast your bread upon the waters and it shall return to you after many days", hope you enjoy soggy bread.
As for you and your motives, "and so say all of us(Legion, for we are many) ... Enjoy your solitude, you certainly are unique, just like all the rest of us are. 🙂

All of whom?

It's hard to enjoy life when I'm bewitched, bothered and bewildered. Men are not a new sensation but these half-pint imitations put me on the blink.

Thanks for the quote. It isn't necessary for the bee to understand pollination in order to perform it.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
So, when Lazarus was brought back from the dead, had his soul been in Heaven or Hell?

Meaningless speculation, Mark. Definitive answer is neither.... his immortal soul awaited Christ's

(Come forth, Lazarus) resuscitation in Abraham's Bosom, one of the four compartments of Hades.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
Surely they don't believe that a piece of fluid-filled plastic is sentient, much less a person?

You tell me. Can a non-sentient being believe?