1. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Oct '10 18:252 edits
    "Thou Shalt Not Kill"


    At a monastic retreat near Paris, in July of 1973, Srila Prabhupada talked with Cardinal Jean Danielou: "... the Bible does not simply say, 'Do not kill the human being.' It says broadly, 'Thou shalt not kill.'... why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?"




    Srila Prabhupada: Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." So why is it that the Christian people are engaged in animal killing?

    Cardinal Danielou: Certainly in Christianity it is forbidden to kill, but we believe that there is a difference between the life of a human being and the life of the beasts. The life of a human being is sacred because man is made in the image of God; therefore, to kill a human being is forbidden.

    Srila Prabhupada: But the Bible does not simply say, "Do not kill the human being." It says broadly, "Thou shalt not kill."

    Cardinal Danielou: We believe that only human life is sacred.

    Srila Prabhupada: That is your interpretation. The commandment is "Thou shalt not kill."

    Cardinal Danielou: It is necessary for man to kill animals in order to have food to eat.

    Srila Prabhupada: No. Man can eat grains, vegetables, fruits, and milk.

    Cardinal Danielou: No flesh?

    Srila Prabhupada: No. Human beings are meant to eat vegetarian food. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. His prescribed food is animal flesh. But man's food is vegetables, fruits, grains, and milk products. So how can you say that animal killing is not a sin?

    Cardinal Danielou: We believe it is a question of motivation. If the killing of an animal is for giving food to the hungry, then it is justified.

    Srila Prabhupada: But consider the cow: we drink her milk; therefore, she is our mother. Do you agree?

    Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely.

    Srila Prabhupada: So if the cow is your mother, how can you support killing her? You take the milk from her, and when she's old and cannot give you milk, you cut her throat. Is that a very humane proposal? In India those who are meat-eaters are advised to kill some lower animals like goats, pigs, or even buffalo. But cow killing is the greatest sin. In preaching God consciousness we ask people not to eat any kind of meat, and my disciples strictly follow this principle. But if, under certain circumstances, others are obliged to eat meat, then they should eat the flesh of some lower animal. Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And as long as a man is sinful, he cannot understand God. The human being's main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if you remain sinful, you will never be able to understand God--what to speak of loving Him.

    Cardinal Danielou: I think that perhaps this is not an essential point. The important thing is to love God. The practical commandments can vary from one religion to the next.

    Srila Prabhupada: So, in the Bible God's practical commandment is that you cannot kill; therefore killing cows is a sin for you.

    Cardinal Danielou: God says to the Indians that killing is not good, and he says to the Jews that...

    Srila Prabhupada: No, no. Jesus Christ taught, "Thou shalt not kill." Why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?

    Cardinal Danielou: But Jesus allowed the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb.

    Srila Prabhupada: But he never maintained a slaughterhouse.

    Cardinal Danielou: [Laughs.] No, but he did eat meat.

    Srila Prabhupada: When there is no other food, someone may eat meat in order to keep from starving. That is another thing. But it is most sinful to regularly maintain slaughterhouses just to satisfy your tongue. Actually, you will not even have a human society until this cruel practice of maintaining slaughterhouses is stopped. And although animal killing may sometimes be necessary for survival, at least the mother animal, the cow, should not be killed. That is simply human decency. In the Krsna consciousness movement our practice is that we don't allow the killing of any animals. The Lord says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati: "Vegetables, fruits, milk, and grains should be offered to Me in devotion." (Bhagavad-gita 9.26) We take only the remnants of Krsna's food (prasadam). The trees offer us many varieties of fruits, but the trees are not killed. Of course, one living entity is food for another living entity, but that does not mean you can kill your mother for food. Cows are innocent; they give us milk. You take their milk--and then kill them in the slaughterhouse. This is sinful.

    Student: Srila Prabhupada, Christianity's sanction of meat-eating is based on the view that lower species of life do not have a soul like the human being's.

    Srila Prabhupada: That is foolishness. First of all, we have to understand the evidence of the soul's presence within the body. Then we can see whether the human being has a soul and the cow does not. What are the different characteristics of the cow and the man? If we find a difference in characteristics, then we can say that in the animal there is no soul. But if we see that the animal and the human being have the same characteristics, then how can you say that the animal has no soul? The general symptoms are that the animal eats, you eat; the animal sleeps, you sleep; the animal mates, you mate; the animal defends, and you defend. Where is the difference?

    Cardinal Danielou: We admit that in the animal there may be the same type of biological existence as in men, but there is no soul. We believe that the soul is a human soul.

    Srila Prabhupada: Our Bhagavad-gita says sarva-yonisu, "In all species of life the soul exists." The body is like a suit of clothes. You have black clothes; I am dressed in saffron clothes. But within the dress you are a human being, and I am also a human being. Similarly, the bodies of the different species are just like different types of dress. There are soul, a part and parcel of God. Suppose a man has two sons, not equally meritorious. One may be a Supreme Court judge and the other may be a common laborer, but the father claims both as his sons. He does not make the distinction that the son who is a judge is very important and the worker-son is not important. And if the judge-son says, "My dear father, your other son is useless; let me cut him up and eat him," will the father allow this?

    Cardinal Danielou: Certainly not, but the idea that all life is part of the life of God is difficult for us to admit. There is a great difference between human life and animal life.

    Srila Prabhupada: That difference is due to the development of consciousness. In the human body there is developed consciousness. Even a tree has a soul, but a tree's consciousness is not very developed. If you cut a tree it does not resist. Actually, it does resist, but only to a very small degree. There is a scientist named Jagadish Chandra Bose who has made a machine which shows that trees and plants are able to feel pain when they are cut. And we can see directly that when someone comes to kill an animal, it resists, it cries, it makes a horrible sound. So it is a matter of the development of consciousness. But the soul is there within all living beings.

    Cardinal Danielou: But metaphysically, the life of man is sacred. Human beings think on a higher platform than the animals do.

    Srila Prabhupada: What is that higher platform? The animal eats to maintain his body, and you also eat in order to maintain your body. The cow eats grass in the field, and the human being eats meat from a huge slaughterhouse full of modern machines. But just because you have big machines and a ghastly scene, while the animal simply eats grass, this does not mean that you are so advanced that only within your body is there a soul and that there is not a soul within the body of the animal. That is illogical. We can see that the basic characteristics are the same in the animal and the human being.

    Cardinal Danielou: But only in human beings do we find a metaphysical search for the meaning of life.

    Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So metaphysically search out why you believe that there is no soul within the animal--that is metaphysics. If you are thinking metaphysically, that's all right. But if you are thinking like an animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical study? Metaphysical means "above the physical" or, in other words, "spiritual." In the Bhagavad-gita the Lord says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya: "In every living being there is a spirit soul." That is metaphysical understanding. Now either you accept Krsna's teachings as metaphysical, or you'll have to take a third-class fool's opinion as metaphysical. Which do you accept?

    Cardinal Danielou: But why does God create some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation, it seems.

    Srila Prabhupada: It is not a fault. God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give you full facility. God will give you the body of a tiger in your next life so that you can eat flesh very freely. "Why are you maintaining slaughterhouses? I'll give you fangs and claws. Now eat." So the meat-eaters are awaiting such punishment. The animal-eaters become tigers, wolves, cats, and dogs in their next life--to get more facility."

    Science of Self-Realization, Chapter 4

    Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    28 Oct '10 19:391 edit
    It is not "thou shalt not kill" it is "thou shalt not murder". Murder only applies to people. If you want to argue that animals are people you can do so but currently it's generally accepted that only humans are people. I remember some sort of movement in Spain to treat apes as people...
  3. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Oct '10 20:012 edits
    Because the christians are embarrased by their killing and cant stop it, they have changed their bible to say "Murder" and when asked why they changed the word of their Lord, they respond by saying they havn,t and its always been that way....but of course its a lie and it has been changed so we now have a religion that allows the slaughter and suffering of animals (guilt free now) to satisfy the tounge......its bogus!
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    28 Oct '10 20:22
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Because the christians are embarrased by their killing and cant stop it, they have changed their bible to say "Murder" and when asked why they changed the word of their Lord, they respond by saying they havn,t and its always been that way....but of course its a lie and it has been changed so we now have a religion that allows the slaughter and suffering of animals (guilt free now) to satisfy the tounge......its bogus!
    Nope.
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    28 Oct '10 20:271 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Because the christians are embarrased by their killing and cant stop it, they have changed their bible to say "Murder" and when asked why they changed the word of their Lord, they respond by saying they havn,t and its always been that way....but of course its a lie and it has been changed so we now have a religion that allows the slaughter and suffering of animals (guilt free now) to satisfy the tounge......its bogus!
    unsubstantiated opinion and a lie, the ancient text has been preserved for hundreds of generations intact, most expertly by the Masoretes (you have heard of the Masoretic text i hope) who numbered every single letter and by findings such as the dead sea scrolls and the sahidic coptic text. Why you continue to utter such untruth is doing your case no good, therefore we shall ask you once again, on what basis are you stating that the text has been changed from kill to murder? if you have no answer you are a peddler of opinion, and worse than that, of other peoples opinions, so either make with the reddies or shut up.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Oct '10 20:53
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Because the christians are embarrased by their killing and cant stop it, they have changed their bible to say "Murder" and when asked why they changed the word of their Lord, they respond by saying they havn,t and its always been that way....but of course its a lie and it has been changed so we now have a religion that allows the slaughter and suffering of animals (guilt free now) to satisfy the tounge......its bogus!
    I agree that meat eating is mostly to satisfy the tounge,however there are communities that are notable exceptions,like the eskimos.
  7. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    28 Oct '10 21:19
    I love animals. Especially when slow smoked; beef brisket, turkey or sausage, with a generous slathering of barbecue sauce on top.
  8. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Oct '10 21:19
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I agree that meat eating is mostly to satisfy the tounge,however there are communities that are notable exceptions,like the eskimos.
    The Eskimos dont kill mother cow, and they have their blubba to eat.....to be an Eskimo is the birth given to a person who has created that Karma, so their Karma has offered them the Eskimo life of blubba eating and living in harsh conditions.

    Why dont Eskimos catch a bus to Florida.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Oct '10 21:211 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    The Eskimos dont kill mother cow, and they have their blubba to eat.....to be an Eskimo is the birth given to a person who has created that Karma, so their Karma has offered them the Eskimo life of blubba eating and living in harsh conditions.

    Why dont Eskimos catch a bus to Florida.
    Be reasonable man. I would be happy if everyone was more aware of other animals welfare in general. To think everyone will become vegetarian is not going to happen.
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Oct '10 21:25
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    The Eskimos dont kill mother cow, and they have their blubba to eat.....to be an Eskimo is the birth given to a person who has created that Karma, so their Karma has offered them the Eskimo life of blubba eating and living in harsh conditions.

    Why dont Eskimos catch a bus to Florida.
    The Australian aboriginies lived in accord with nature(ie. they trampled as little as possible) and they ate meat. I have no problem with this legacy. I would have no problem with people living this way. Of course , you are right, we will continue to evolve spiritually and eventually not need physical food anymore, but do we really want to be talking about something that is largely an irrelevent subject as compared with other atrocities taking place in the world.
  11. Standard memberDasa
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    28 Oct '10 22:07
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    The Australian aboriginies lived in accord with nature(ie. they trampled as little as possible) and they ate meat. I have no problem with this legacy. I would have no problem with people living this way. Of course , you are right, we will continue to evolve spiritually and eventually not need physical food anymore, but do we really want to be talking ab ...[text shortened]... at is largely an irrelevent subject as compared with other atrocities taking place in the world.
    Actually the animal killing is more important to understand than first realized.

    This world that we are now living in is very violent and because people are not educated with real knowledge, they dont understand that every living thing has their life to live without being violated uneccessarily, and of course there are tribes that hunt for meat, and that is their specific Karma as well, but man is violent towards man because he first is violent towards animals.

    To be born long ago as an aborigine or a pygmy head hunter is a specific karma and the cycle of Karma never ends unless one takes to the Spiritual life.

    I am giving the truth of the matter here for the people who want to hear it, and there will be many who dont, but the Spiritual life begins with the proper understanding that animal slaughter will slash any hopes for advancing in the Spirutual life, and without advancing in the Spiritual life, rebirth in this world of suffering will continue....so I see this as very important.

    There are persons of the christian faith who would like to please their Lord Jesus, and if they are meat eaters they will not gain the favour of their Lord
    and will have to take birth again in this world of suffering.....they could even come back again as a beef cow and be slaughtered themselves, so I would not like this to happen to them, or would they. (karma never sleeps)
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    28 Oct '10 22:46
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    "Thou Shalt Not Kill"


    At a monastic retreat near Paris, in July of 1973, Srila Prabhupada talked with Cardinal Jean Danielou: "... the Bible does not simply say, 'Do not kill the human being.' It says broadly, 'Thou shalt not kill.'... why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?"




    Srila Prabhupada: Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt ...[text shortened]... HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
    >>>the Bible does not simply say, 'Do not kill the human being.' It says broadly, 'Thou shalt not kill.'... why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?"<<<

    After Christ's resurrection he was found preparing some fish for the other disciples near by him at one time written in the Holy Bible.

    Now, obviously they were the state of "alive" when he first received them, then to put them on the barbecue, no?
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Oct '10 23:301 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Actually the animal killing is more important to understand than first realized.

    This world that we are now living in is very violent and because people are not educated with real knowledge, they dont understand that every living thing has their life to live without being violated uneccessarily, and of course there are tribes that hunt for meat, and th ...[text shortened]... red themselves, so I would not like this to happen to them, or would they. (karma never sleeps)
    You are giving your version of A truth.
    Here you seem to suggest that ancient peoples were less advanced (spiritually) and hence ate meat n' such. Other places you've said that Vedanta is ancient( eternal, I believe), and that it is perfected truth.
    So did we evolve spiritually or devolve spiritually? You seem to be saying both.

    Do you have your own concept of what christians term "the Fall"?

    Edit: Yes,you definatley say the aboriginies will suffer karma until they take to the spiritual life. You dont think they had a spiritual life? A lot of people think they were one the most spiritual peoples in the world.
    Given you live in Brisbane,and some of the stuff you've said on this forum, I think it extremely short-sighted of you to call the aboriginie peoples unspiritual (simply because they do not follow Vedanta)

    pygmies indeed..... 🙄
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    28 Oct '10 23:39
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Be reasonable man. I would be happy if everyone was more aware of other animals welfare in general. To think everyone will become vegetarian is not going to happen.
    Oh, my friend, this most asSUREdly shall come to fruition to be experienced.
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    28 Oct '10 23:42
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Actually the animal killing is more important to understand than first realized.

    This world that we are now living in is very violent and because people are not educated with real knowledge, they dont understand that every living thing has their life to live without being violated uneccessarily, and of course there are tribes that hunt for meat, and th ...[text shortened]... red themselves, so I would not like this to happen to them, or would they. (karma never sleeps)
    I comPLEtely concur
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