1. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 05:311 edit
    Recently on another thread, Halitosis cut and pasted a list of influential Xstians from another web site.

    Here is his borrowed list (from the site http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/features/131christians.html)

    Rembrandt Harmensz Van Rijn
    Johann Sebastian Bach
    George Frideric Handel
    John Bunyan
    Harriet Beecher Stowe
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    George MacDonald
    G.K. Chesterton
    Dorothy Sayers
    C.S. Lewis
    Dante Alighieri
    Geoffrey Chaucer
    John Donne
    George Herbert
    John Milton
    Anne Bradstreet
    Isaac Watts
    Charles Wesley
    Fanny Crosby
    T.S. Eliot
    Francis of Assisi
    Joan of Arc
    Søren Kierkegaard
    John Woolman
    William Wilberforce
    Elizabeth Fry
    Sojourner Truth
    William Booth
    Origen
    Erasmus
    Nicholas Copernicus
    Francis Bacon
    Galileo Galilei
    Johannes Kepler
    Rene Descartes
    Isaac Newton
    Robert Boyle
    Michael Faraday
    Gregor Mendel
    Kelvin
    Max Planck

    I intend to display that this list is a clear misrepresentation by the aforemention Xstian site and includes people who were clearly not Xstians.
  2. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 05:38
    1. Nicolaus Copernicus.

    Whilst it is true that he studied at religious universities, in those days, there was no other way to get further education.
    He directly contradicted religious belief of the day in several areas:


    "His theory about the Sun as the center of the Universe, opposed to the traditional geocentric theory that placed Earth at the center, is considered one of the most important discoveries ever, and is the fundamental starting point of modern astronomy and modern science itself (it inaugurated a scientific revolution). His theory affected many aspects of human life, opening the door for young astronomers, scientists and scholars to take a skeptical attitude toward established dogma."

    In summary:

    "Copernicus' work contradicted then-accepted religious dogma: it could be inferred that there was no need of an entity (God) that granted a soul, power and life to the World and to human beings — science could explain everything that was attributed to Him."

    quotes from :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus#Biography

    Hardly a line-towing, bible-reading, god-fearing Christian!
  3. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 05:521 edit
    2. Galileo Galilei.

    Given his support for Copernicus' work which was in direct contravention of the Church's view of the universe, I doubt he too was a card carrying Xtian in the final reckoning:

    "the charges brought by the priests who had been goaded to act against him were serious. These men asserted that dreadful consequences must result to Christian theology were the heavenly bodies proved to revolve about the Sun and not about the Earth. Their most tremendous dogmatic engine was the statement that "his pretended discovery vitiates the whole Christian plan of salvation." Father Lecazre declared, "It casts suspicion on the doctrine of the incarnation." Others declared, "It upsets the whole basis of theology. If the Earth is a planet, and only one among several planets, it can not be that any such great things have been done specially for it as the Christian doctrine teaches. If there are other planets, since God makes nothing in vain, they must be inhabited; but how can their inhabitants be descended from Adam? How can they trace back their origin to Noah's ark? How can they have been redeemed by the Saviour?"

    Scared by the usual bully boy tactics of the church:
    "he was given an examination of intention, a formal process that involved showing the accused the instruments of torture. At this proceeding, he said, "I am here to obey, and have not held this [Copernican] opinion after the determination made, as I said." "

    He was nevertheless place under house arrest by the Roman inquisition:

    "On June 22, 1633, the Inquisition held the final hearing on Galileo, who was then 69 years old and pleaded for mercy, pointing to his "regrettable state of physical unwellness". Galileo was forced at this time to "abjure, curse and detest" his work and to promise to denounce others who held his prior viewpoint. Galileo did everything the church requested him to do, following (insofar as there is any evidence) the plea bargain of two months earlier; nonetheless, he was convicted of "grave suspicion of heresy" and was sentenced to life imprisonment."

    Quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

    I am sure he was a fervent Xtian after this ordeal!

    The Xtain web-site listing him as a Xtian, has no details about him, but tellingly just describes him as a "Misjudged astronomer".
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/features/131christians.html

    Too true, misjudged by your biased ignorant website as being a Christian!!!!
  4. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 06:06
    3. Rene Descartes

    Writing at the height of the Inquisitions, it is generally agreed that his feeble proofs of God were simply a means to keep the torturers at bay.
    Indeed;
    "In 1629 he began work on The World. In 1633, Galileo was condemned, and Descartes abandoned plans to publish The World". Hints at his fear of Religious backlash against his non-conformist ideas.

    "In 1667, after his death, the Roman Catholic Church placed his works on the Index of Prohibited Books."

    Quotes from:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

    Yet another fine example of a Xtain. Good effort Halitosis!!!
  5. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 06:16
    4. John Donne

    Who he? Oh a poet. Even he rejected the Roman Catholicism he was brought up with:

    "Donne's growing family prompted him to seek the favours of the King, and in 1610 and 1611, wrote two anti-Catholic polemics. One of them was the 1611 satire Ignatius his Conclave, which was probably the first English work to mention Galileo."

    The king would only pay him for religious writings, but so anti-religion was Donne that even then he refused:

    "King James... refused to offer anything except ecclesiastical preferments. Donne resisted taking holy orders."

    Finally, forced to bow to the pressures of poverty, Donne had to compromise his principles:

    "After a long period of financial uncertainty and desperation, during which he was twice a member of Parliament (1601, 1614), Donne heeded the King's wishes and was ordained in 1615."

    Quotes from
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Donne

    I had never even heard of the guy until you mentioned him, Halitosis.
    Then 5 minutes of research on the web proved that the Xtian web site was twisting the truth yet again.
    (Doesn't this mean that somebody is going to hell for lying?)
  6. Standard memberHalitose
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    09 Nov '05 06:21
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Recently on another thread, Halitosis cut and pasted a list of influential Xstians from another web site.

    Here is his borrowed list (from the site http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/features/131christians.html)

    Rembrandt Harmensz Van Rijn
    Johann Sebastian Bach
    George Frideric Handel
    John Bunyan
    Harriet Beecher Stowe
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky ...[text shortened]... representation by the aforemention Xstian site and includes people who were clearly not Xstians.
    Many of the names on that list you wont find on that website of yours.... What's your point anyway? The thread was about religion, you are going to beat your head on a rock all day and you wont be able to prove that even one of them was a hard-core atheist like you. Good luck... I'll read through your so-called debunking, but they are all non sequitur for proving that my candidates were atheists.
  7. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 06:29
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Many of the names on that list you wont find on that website of yours.... What's your point anyway? The thread was about religion, you are going to beat your head on a rock all day and you wont be able to prove that even one of them was a hard-core atheist like you. Good luck... I'll read through your so-called debunking, but they are all non sequitur for proving that my candidates were atheists.
    You originally compiled the list as examples of:

    "As this thread is an attack on all religions, my list will include all non-atheists in proving my point that people can be religious and still have a constructive impact on life."

    I have just noticed your non-sequitor which invalidates your whole aim.

    By listing non-atheists, you are not necessarily proving that they are religious. For example they may be agnostics.

    Thus your list, by your own criteria may not necessarily contain a single Christian.
    Therefore you have completely wasted your time compiling the list.

    Oh well, it was fun and educational debunking that dumb Xtian web-site anyway!
  8. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    09 Nov '05 06:46
    "The faith in miracles must yield, step by step, before the steady and firm advance of the facts of science, and its total defeat is undoubtedly a matter of time."
    -Max Planck
  9. Cosmos
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    09 Nov '05 06:491 edit
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    "The faith in miracles must yield, step by step, before the steady and firm advance of the facts of science, and its total defeat is undoubtedly a matter of time."
    -Max Planck
    Thanks Xanthos - I should have known that possibly the most important yet most underated Scientist of all time could hardly be religious.
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Nov '05 07:05
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    "The faith in miracles must yield, step by step, before the steady and firm advance of the facts of science, and its total defeat is undoubtedly a matter of time."
    -Max Planck
    The history of all times and nations teaches us that exactly in the naïve, unshakable belief, furnished by religion in active life of believers, originate the most intense motives for the most significant creative performance, not only in the field of arts and sciences but also in politics.
    -- Max Planck, from lecture Johann Ambrosius Barth Verlag, Leipzig (1958), S. 5, quoted from Adam Roman, "Remarkable attitude of Max Planck to religion" (18 July 2001)
  11. Standard memberHalitose
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    09 Nov '05 08:35
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The history of all times and nations teaches us that exactly in the naïve, unshakable belief, furnished by religion in active life of believers, originate the most intense motives for the most significant creative performance, not only in the field of arts and sciences but also in politics.
    -- Max Planck, from lecture Johann Ambrosius Barth Verlag, Le ...[text shortened]... , S. 5, quoted from Adam Roman, "Remarkable attitude of Max Planck to religion" (18 July 2001)
    Tell that to HG; the way he goes on one would be convinced he thinks religion is the catalyst for mediocrity...
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Nov '05 08:41
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Tell that to HG; the way he goes on one would be convinced he thinks religion is the catalyst for mediocrity...
    It certainly can be, but the opposite is also true. In both cases I think that the character of the person concerned is what is most important. Someone with a mediocre character is likely to be unimpressive whether atheist or religious in persuasion.

    As Planck pointed out, religion & science are different domains; had Planck been an atheist his scientific work would likely have been equally valuable; his religion did not necessarily inform his work (how to see Christ in an equation), but his work was not his whole life.
  13. London
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    09 Nov '05 11:28
    Originally posted by howardgee
    1. Nicolaus Copernicus.

    Whilst it is true that he studied at religious universities, in those days, there was no other way to get further education.
    He directly contradicted religious belief of the day in several areas:


    "His theory about the Sun as the center of the Universe, opposed to the traditional geocentric theory that placed Earth at the c ...[text shortened]... dia.org/wiki/Copernicus#Biography

    Hardly a line-towing, bible-reading, god-fearing Christian!
    (hg) Hardly a line-towing, bible-reading, god-fearing Christian!


    Actually, very much a Bible-reading, God-fearing Christian. He starts off by quoting Psalms in his Introduction to De Revolutionibus and goes on to say the following in chapter 9:

    For my part I believe that gravity is nothing but a certain natural desire, which the divine providence of the Creator of all things has implanted in parts, to gather as a unity and a whole by combining in the form of a globe.


    Do read De Revolutionibus when you have some time:

    http://webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Copernicus.html
  14. London
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    09 Nov '05 12:07
    Originally posted by howardgee
    2. Galileo Galilei.

    Given his support for Copernicus' work which was in direct contravention of the Church's view of the universe, I doubt he too was a card carrying Xtian in the final reckoning:

    "the charges brought by the priests who had been goaded to act against him were serious. These men asserted that dreadful consequences must result to Chr ...[text shortened]... 1christians.html

    Too true, misjudged by your biased ignorant website as being a Christian!!!!
    (hg) Too true, misjudged by your biased ignorant website as being a Christian!!!!


    This keeps getting easier. From Galileo's letter to Castelli:

    For the Holy Scripture and nature both equally derive from the divine Word, the former as the dictation of the Holy Spirit, the latter as the most obedient executrix of God’s commands; moreover, in order to adapt itself to the understanding of all people, it was appropriate for the Scripture to say many things which are different from absolute truth, in appearance and in regard to the meaning of the words; on the other hand, nature is inexorable and immutable, and she does not care at all whether or not her recondite reasons and modes of operations are revealed to human understanding, and so she never transgresses the terms of the laws imposed on her; therefore, whatever sensory experience places before our eyes or necessary demonstrations prove to us concerning natural effects should not in any way be called into question on account of scriptural passages whose words appear to have a different meaning, since not every statement of the Scripture is bound to obligations as severely as each effect of nature. Indeed, because of the aim of adapting itself to the capacity of unrefined and undisciplined peoples, the Scripture has not abstained from somewhat concealing its most basic dogmas, thus attributing to God himself properties contrary to and very far from his essence; so who will categorically maintain that, in speaking even incidentally of the earth of the sun or other creatures, it abandoned this aim and chose to restrict itself rigorously within the limited and narrow meanings of the words: This would have been especially problematic when saying about these creatures things which are very far from the primary function of the Holy Writ, indeed things which, if said and put forth in their naked and unadorned truth, would more likely harm its primary intention and make people more resistant to persuasion about the articles pertaining to salvation.


    Once again, I recommend you actually read their works before deciding they are not Christian:

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/lettercastelli.html
  15. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    09 Nov '05 12:25
    Originally posted by howardgee
    3. Rene Descartes

    Writing at the height of the Inquisitions, it is generally agreed that his feeble proofs of God were simply a means to keep the torturers at bay.
    Indeed;
    "In 1629 he began work on The World. In 1633, Galileo was condemned, and Descartes abandoned plans to publish The World". Hints at his fear of Religious backlash against his non- ...[text shortened]... ipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

    Yet another fine example of a Xtain. Good effort Halitosis!!!
    Here's a site you might like :

    http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_kessler/giordano_bruno.html


    Filosofo, arso vivo a Roma,
    PER VOLONTA DEL PAPA
    IL 17 FEBBRAIO 1600
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