Literal inpiration of the Bible

Originally posted by whodey
Paul once said in Galations 3:28 that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, man or female and that all are one in God.

Being a Biblical road scholar that you seem to be, why do you ignore this? You are obviously misreading what Paul is saying.

What does 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-14 mean to you. How do you intrepret these scriptures?

How do you pick and choose which of Paul's teachings to follow. Do you think we should ignore his teachings below. What do these instructions below by Paul mean to you? How do you apply these words of Paul in your life or do you ignore them?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Originally posted by whodey
Paul once said in Galations 3:28 that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, man or female and that all are one in God.

Being a Biblical road scholar that you seem to be, why do you ignore this? You are obviously misreading what Paul is saying.

Does Galations 3:26 contradict and refute 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and thus women are permitted to speak in church?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

Originally posted by moon1969
What wisdom can we draw from this word of God below, and how do you think we should apply this word of God in our own lives?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthia ...[text shortened]... was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Its important to read exegetically. Understanding of the cultural norms of the times is critical in knowing what is being expressed. Many people interpret as a caution against gossiping during the service. Others might percieve it as establishing an orderly pattern to the worship service. Previous to Christ Jewish women did not worship with men, and so may have been unaccustomed to the formalities. also, diverse cultures were now worshiping together in new ways, this may have been helpful in helping the diversity to mesh a little more smoothly.

There is no one right answer, the Rabbi's (for thousands of years) have always stated that scripture always has more than one way of being read. it's up to the reader to be thoughtful and prayerful about the process.

Originally posted by moon1969
Does Galations 3:26 contradict and refute 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and thus women are permitted to speak in church?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

As per my above post: exegetical reading is important. One letter was to the church in Galatia, the other was to the church in Corinth, each church needed to deal with its issues in culturally relevant ways.

Also read Jaywill's above post, he is on to something, and seem's to answer your repetative question

Originally posted by Doward
There is no one right answer, the Rabbi's (for thousands of years) have always stated that scripture always has more than one way of being read. it's up to the reader to be thoughtful and prayerful about the process.

This is New Testament.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Did Rabbis interpret this scripture?

Originally posted by Doward
Also read Jaywill's above post, he is on to something, and seem's to answer your repetative question

I am not sure what Jaywill is suggesting or asking. He did seem to misquote somewhat the 38th verse. This is my understanding of the verse:

NIV 14:38 "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

KJ 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

It seems to me Paul is saying if you ignore his teachings, you do so at your own peril. Thus, we should follow his teaching below:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Originally posted by Doward
Its important to read exegetically. Understanding of the cultural norms of the times is critical in knowing what is being expressed.

As for standing the test of time, how do you pick and choose which scripture is only applicable back then and not now? Arguably, one could characterize any scripture as inapplicable today. Seems like a slippery slope.


Is this scripture below still applicable today, or do we ignore it? As Paul says, Adam was not deceived and Eve (the woman) was in the transgression. That has not changed.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Originally posted by moon1969
I am not sure what Jaywill is suggesting or asking. He did seem to misquote somewhat the 38th verse. This is my understanding of the verse:

NIV 14:38 "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

KJ 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

It seems to me Paul is saying if you ignore his teachings, you do so at your own peril as not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

I am not sure what Jaywill is suggesting or asking. He did seem to misquote somewhat the 38th verse. This is my understanding of the verse:

NIV 14:38 "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

KJ 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

I was quoting from the Recovery Version of the Bible. It is of course a well known fact that sometimes two or more English translations may differ slightly.

To show that the RcV translation of the Greek is not that far off from other reputable renderings , let's check a few more English translations.

J. N. Darby New translation - 1 Cor. 14:38 - "But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

Weymouth The New Testament in Modern Speech - "But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant."

1901 American Standard Version - [b]"But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant"

Rotherham Emphasized Bible - "But if anyone knoweth not he is unknown."

Recovery Version [b]"But if anyone ignores [this], let him ignore it."

New King James - [b]"But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant." And a footnote has alternate rendering "NU-Text reads If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."


(copied without permission from http://biblebrowser.com/1_corinthians/14-38.htm
[/b]
<< 1 Corinthians 14 >>
New American Standard Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Parallel Verses

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored.

King James Bible
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But if any man know not, he shall not be known.

Darby Bible Translation
But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

English Revised Version
But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Webster's Bible Translation
But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Weymouth New Testament
But if any one is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

World English Bible
But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Young's Literal Translation
and if any one is ignorant -- let him be ignorant;

It seems to me Paul is saying if you ignore his teachings, you do so at your own peril. Thus, we should follow his teaching below:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

[/b] [/b]

Then in our congregations we do so at our peril, if that is what he meant.
We have sisters pray and prophesy (speak words of God for edification and encouragement).

So we will bear the responsibility before God at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But in our meetings the sisters do praise, sing, pray, speak, and function as we believe the exhortation - "You may all prophesy one by one." .

It could be that Paul was general concerning the matter, yet he did have his way and his rational. We feel the Lord's blessing on our practice.

And if you visit some of the websites of the local churches you will read many testimonials written by sisters. They were not excluded from sharing their valuable experiences of Christ as well.

www.localchurches.org.

Now my offer still stands. If you wish to use the other rendering, please point out another exhortation to a Christian congregation under his ministry, in which Paul concluded the matter with such a word as this:

"If anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant"

Originally posted by moon1969
This is New Testament.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Did Rabbis interpret this scripture?

hmmm, yes, I have encountered knuckleheads like you before. You think you're being clever, but most people read your posts and think: "Was he reading the same thing I was?" Its typical of trolls like yourself to ignore what's posted and simply repost your original assertion no matter how many times it has been discredited. You're not nearly as bright as you would like people to think you are, answer my reply in an intelligent fashion and I will re-engage in discussion

Originally posted by moon1969
Does Galations 3:26 contradict and refute 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and thus women are permitted to speak in church?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

What it shows is that no matter your "role" in society, we are all equal in the eyes of God. As for myself, I am subject to powers above me, such as the ones in government and ordered by scripture to try and obey them, so long as it does not conflict with God's law. That means doing such things as buying health insurance so I don't get thrown in jail etc. Does this mean that those in government are more important than I? Nope.

Likewise, women have roles in society. At that time I suspect women had lesser roles than they do today. Paul basically said that if something offends another, don't do it unless it once again violates God's law. As Christians, we are to be senesitive to the culture and abide by thier unwritten laws as well. Otherwise it just becomes a pissing match which distracts from the primary purpose of conversion. Additionally, the Biblical role of a female in the home is for the woman to be subject to her husband. After all, if both disagree then where does that leave the family? Likewise, we don't have two Presidents now do we? Of course, this does not apply if abuse is in the mix, then things can change. Men are to love their wives which means hearing what they have to say and trying to please them to the best of their ability. Theologically there are variations on how women should handle abuse within the home.

This all reminds me of a little true story I once heard. A woman became a Christian, however, her husband hated the idea and forbade her to pray and go to church. She still did those things and layed low, however, one day when she came home from church he locked the doors on her and she could not get into the house. The next morning he found her on the porch sleeping. When she awoke, she did not say a word. She went into the house and into the kitchen and made him his favorite breakfast. He then broke down and begged her forgiveness and converted himself.

So was it right in the eyes of God for her to up and leave her husband? Maybe, depending on your theological perspective, but listening to the voice of God is more important, even if they abusive party does not reciprocate like the husband in the story.

Originally posted by Doward
hmmm, yes, I have encountered knuckleheads like you before. You think you're being clever, but most people read your posts and think: "Was he reading the same thing I was?" Its typical of trolls like yourself to ignore what's posted and simply repost your original assertion no matter how many times it has been discredited. You're not nearly as bright as you w ...[text shortened]... think you are, answer my reply in an intelligent fashion and I will re-engage in discussion

Admittedly, I know very little on this subject. Moreover, I understand that scripture should be evaluated considering the time it was written and that maybe the word of God is not everlasting.

But how do you pick and choose which scripture is only applicable back then and not applicable now? Arguably, one could characterize any scripture as inapplicable today. Seems like a slippery slope.

Is this scripture below still applicable today, or do we ignore it? How do we use the scripture below in our lives? What guidance do we take from this scripture below from the Bible. Note, as Paul says, Adam was not deceived and Eve (the woman) was in the transgression. Do you believe that?

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Originally posted by jaywill

I am not sure what Jaywill is suggesting or asking. He did seem to misquote somewhat the 38th verse. This is my understanding of the verse:

NIV 14:38 "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."

KJ 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

I was quoting from the Recovery Version of the Bible. It d as this:

[b]"If anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant" [/b]

Sorry, I still don't understand what you are asking. Are you saying that women who ignore Paul's instructions, and speak in church and teach, are ignorant and do so at their peril?

I do notice in the verse 39 you quote that Paul indicates speaking in tongues is ok but he doesn't relinquish his demand that women not speak in church. Paul also doesn't disqualify his comment that Adam was not deceived but instead Eve (women) was in the transgression, and that is a reason women should not usurp the authority of the man, should be in subjection, and should not teach, and should be in silence.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Some commentary on the verse 38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.":

Barne's Notes on the Bible
But if any be ignorant ... - If anyone affects to be ignorant of my authority, or whether I have a right to command. If he affects to doubt whether I am inspired, and whether what I utter is in accordance with the will of God.

Let him be ignorant - At his own peril, let him remain so, and abide the consequences. I shall not take any further trouble to debate with him. I have stated my authority. I have delivered the commands of God. And now, if he disregards them, and still doubts whether all this is said by divine authority, let him abide the consequences of rejecting the law of God. I have given full proof of my divine commission. I have nothing more to say on that head. And now, if he chooses to remain in ignorance or incredulity, the fault is his own, and he must answer for it to God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
But if any man be ignorant - If he affect to be so, or pretend that he is ignorant; let him be ignorant - let him be so at his peril.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
But if any man be ignorant,.... Of "these" words, as the Arabic version adds, and does not know and own them to be the commandments of Christ; though he may profess himself to be a prophet, or a spiritual man, he is a very ignorant one, and has not the Spirit of God he pretends to: and if he will not be convinced, but goes on to doubt, and call in question the truth of these things, and obstinately persist in his ignorance,

let him be ignorant: let him be treated and despised as an ignorant man; and let his ignorance be no hinderance to any in receiving these rules and directions as the commandments of Christ; for no regard is to be had, or pity shown, to a man of affected ignorance, and wilful obstinacy; such a man is not to be known and owned, but shunned and rejected.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vincent's Word Studies
14:38 Let him be ignorant
Let him remain ignorant. The text is doubtful. Some read he is not known; i.e., he is one whom God knows not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geneva Study Bible
14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The church ought not to care for those who are stubbornly ignorant, and will not abide to be taught, but to go forward nonetheless in those things which are right.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People's New Testament
14:38 If any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. If he will be ignorant and obstinate, let him remain so.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley's Notes
14:38 Let him be ignorant - Be it at his own peril.

Originally posted by whodey
What it shows is that no matter your "role" in society, we are all equal in the eyes of God. As for myself, I am subject to powers above me, such as the ones in government and ordered by scripture to try and obey them, so long as it does not conflict with God's law. That means doing such things as buying health insurance so I don't get thrown in jail etc. important, even if they abusive party does not reciprocate like the husband in the story.

Thanks for your explanation. Do you believe we can/should ignore and not follow certain scripture in Bible.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

Originally posted by moon1969
Thanks for your explanation. Do you believe we can/should ignore and not follow certain scripture in Bible.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

You should not ignore scripture for it is given to us for our learning.
Of course, you should be sure you understand it before you try to
follow it.

Originally posted by moon1969
Thanks for your explanation. Do you believe we can/should ignore and not follow certain scripture in Bible.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

I'm with whodey and jaywill on this one.

And my answer is: YES, we can and should ignore this particualr piece of Paul's advice, because it is made to a particular community at a particular point in time. It is not relevant to ALL communities at ALL times (such as what John 3,16 is, referring to your earlier comparison)

Times change, customs change.

Btw, I have heard that the verses by Paul on the subjugation of women (possibly wrong word, and definitely not so intended by him, but certainly interpreted like that) are the single biggest reason for abuse and violence against women in many so-called "Christian" households and communities.

:'(