literal or not

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Well I'm genuinely pleased that it works for you. In fact, to a certain degree I'm even a little envious. Unfortunately god evidently has different plans for me, as he's granted me a level of scepticism which won't permit me to follow your example.

Unfortunately god evidently has different plans for me, as he's granted me a level of scepticism which won't permit me to follow your example.

At least we seem to have gone from "possible god or gods" to "god has different plans for me, as he's granted me ..."

Originally posted by catstorm
They needed it to get all the animals on the Ark. Evolution happens only within kinds, though no one defines what a kind is. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis is asking people to stop using the Second Law of Thermodynamics against evolution because it is a bad argument. If Creationism is the clear teaching of Genesis, then why does it change all the time?

Ah. Well, there goes the argument. Global flood and all the animals in a boat is more fairy stories to me. Some bloke saving his farm stock on a boat during the inundation of the Black Sea I'd buy.

Originally posted by sonship

Unfortunately god evidently has different plans for me, as he's granted me a level of scepticism which won't permit me to follow your example.

At least we seem to have gone from "possible god or gods" to "god has different plans for me, as he's granted me ..."

I'm afraid the way I've phrased that may have misled you slightly!

avalanchthecat,

What would an "inspired of God" book hold for you as characteristics ?
I only want a little word on that.

Would an "inspired by God" book be one that from beginning to end contains nothing you would disagree with ?

What would you recognize as an "inspired by God" book to the world?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I'm afraid the way I've phrased that may have misled you slightly!

I thought that might be the case.

Originally posted by sonship
avalanchthecat,

What would an "inspired of God" book hold for you as characteristics ?
I only want a little word on that.

Would an "inspired by God" book be one that from beginning to end contains nothing you would disagree with ?

What would you recognize as an "inspired by God" book to the world?

Yes I've been thinking about that. I really don't know.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Yes I've been thinking about that. I really don't know.

Let me propose some suggestions and you tell me if they are likely.

1.) Would a book inspired by God indicate a knowledge which seems to transcend time ?

2.) Would such a book tell us some things which we might have no other possible way of knowing?

3.) Would such a book have something like universal acceptance (not meaning everyone agrees). But a wide diverse cultural acceptance indicating some amount of universal attraction across diverse cultures ?

4.) Would such a book be life changing?

5.) Would such a book likely to fall into the hands of people wanting to exploit it in order to dignify their own baser motives?

6.) Would such a book have at least something to offend someone somewhere?

7.) Would such a book stand the test of TIME, being diced, sliced, whittled at, mocked perhaps, imitated perhaps on several fronts, mercilessly critiqued and debunked by the best minds around?

8.) Would such a book perhaps contain some characters of really notable characteristics as their coordinating authors perhaps ?

9.) Would such a book anywhere within speak of its own authority?

10.) Would such a book speak to the very deep matters pertaining to why man exists in the universe ?

Originally posted by sonship

Yes I've been thinking about that. I really don't know.

Let me propose some suggestions and you tell me if they are likely.

1.) Would a book inspired by God indicate a knowledge which seems to transcend time ?

2.) Would such a book tell us some things which we might have no other possible way of knowing?

3.) Would such a bo ...[text shortened]... Would such a book speak to the very deep matters pertaining to why man exists in the universe ?

I can see where you're going with this, but good try anyway.

1) I don't see how such a thing could be.
2) If we have no way of verifying it then.. why credit it at all?
3) Universal acceptance - everyone agreeing - that might just do it.
4) It might be. Then again it might be life changing without being divinely inspired.
5) Anything which wields influence would have that quality.
6) Why would anybody be offended by something divinely inspired?
7) I imagine it would, to a much greater degree than the Bible.
8) I don't see why that would be necessary.
9) NO! It wouldn't need to! And in fact, if it did this, I would immediately be suspicious.
10) It might do. It would have to do it in a way which didn't seem risible when viewed through the lens of modern scientific endeavour.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat

I can see where you're going with this, but good try anyway.

Well, you've repeated a number of times " I don't see WHY you think the Bible is inspired by God."

We're tossing the word "inspired" around without really knowing what is meant. So I'd like to know what WOULD a "inspired by God" book look like to you a little ?

Would it be a book that you would say "Now that looks like something I would teach the world" ? Would that be more like a God inspired book ?

1) I don't see how such a thing could be.

Seeing that "God" would be the highest order of Being imaginable.
A book inspired by God should indicate a wisdom or knowledge of a very high order.

Isn't that a reasonable expectation of a book "God inspired"? Perhaps not every sentence in every paragraph would be so high. But a representative amount might be to supply a stamp of transcendence of content.

Would you think a "God inspired book" would at least reveal some characteristic like that within somewhere ?

2) If we have no way of verifying it then.. why credit it at all?

That's a point. Okay.

Let's say this God who "inspired" the book is something like your Dad. I mean this God is something perhaps like a loving parent.

Have you VERIFIED to an exhaustive degree that the man who told you you are his son is REALLY your father ? Did you do a DNA analysis? Did you double check that NO error or mischief could have taken place in such a DNA analysis? Assuming there could be no possible error with that process of course.

Maybe he TOLD you he's your dad. But you REALLY don't KNOW that.
Could the doctors have been mistaken?
Could the doctors have purposely deceived you?
Could the nurses have mixed up the babies and the man who calls himself your father is actually NOT your real father?

To what degree have you gone to verify that the man who told you he is your father is really your father?

Now do not take the following as an insult. It is not intended as an insult.
Could your mother have been mistaken?
He had to have trusted your mother? Right?

No offense intended now. This is scientific.

Maybe your mother was mistaken?
Do you REALLY KNOW that the man you called Dad was your father ?
Or do you TRUST him?
Have you learned to TRUST him for some details that you really have no way to prove 1000% beyond any shadow of doubt?

Maybe it is on God's agenda, (who inspired this book) that you TRUST His love, His care, His concern to tell you TRUTH. Maybe that is one of the characteristics of a book "inspired by God".

Unreasonable?

Maybe there are some things in such a book that require an approvedness to be built up such that you don't KNOW something to be the case, but you have learned to TRUST that you are not being deceived.

There are a few things you believe that you have not scientifically verified as true. You have trusted someone. Suppose a God inspired book has as one of its purposes to engender trust in a TRUSTWORTHY God?

3) Universal acceptance - everyone agreeing - that might just do it.

So, is there any reason to assume that EVERYONE would have absolutely NO PROBLEMS with a book inspired by God ?

I don't know. I think rather, given the way most of us act, I would think wide acceptance COUPLED with everybody having SOMETHING that they WISHED were not in the book.

We have some swindlers, we have some slavers, we have some male chauvanists, we have some superior types because of such things as skin color, we have some rich, we have some poor, we have some self pitying and some cruel and exploiting. We have all KINDS of people with moral outlooks justifying how THEY want to live.

I think a book inspired by God is likely to have SOMETHING to step on SOMEBODY's program somewhere, no matter who you are. I am not sure even an angel would like everything written in such a book, let alone faulty people with all their schemes.

Universal appeal, I could see, yet with disagreement from EVERYBODY about at least something. I never met a person who likes everything in the Bible without one single exception.

Now I am having some difficulty remembering which number stood for which characteristic.

4) It might be. Then again it might be life changing without being divinely inspired.
5) Anything which wields influence would have that quality.

6) Why would anybody be offended by something divinely inspired?

Good question. Have you checked your daily newspaper today ?
Do you think, given the way lots of us act, there would be NO problem with ANYONE concerning a book by a Perfect Being ?

If you think that you have more faith than I do.

Let's be honest now. A book - INSPIRED by God. No one opens it, takes a look and slams it close ? ? No one?

You have more faith than I do.
For quite a stretch of time, I would avoid a God inspired book like a mouse would avoid a cat.

I think given the assumption of God being a Perfect and Eternal Uncreated Governor and authority, and given the way I see people act some of the time, I see some AVOIDANCE and some DISDAIN leveled at least sometime for a book supposedly inspired by God.

I don't know about UNIVERSAL agreement.
Universal appeal I can see.
Self interest, vested self interest lead me to suspect universal appeal of a divinely inspired book in all sections without exception is too much to expect.

We wouldn't NEED it if that were the case.

I would like to return to my original question. If some parts of the Bible are meant literally, (Genesis 1 ?) And some parts are meant figuratively, (Luke 3:11 ?), then who decides which is which? Catholics have an infallible Pope to do this for them. Who do Protestants have?

Originally posted by catstorm
I would like to return to my original question. If some parts of the Bible are meant literally, (Genesis 1 ?) And some parts are meant figuratively, (Luke 3:11 ?), then who decides which is which? Catholics have an infallible Pope to do this for them. Who do Protestants have?

Learn to go with what causes the Spirit of Christ to be imparted into your heart.

Let your standard not be "Who decided for me how to take this passage?" as the most important issue. But does taking this passage in this way cause me to draw closer to God and cause Jesus to grow in my heart ?

Thank you. Are you saying that the correct interpretation of a verse
Is less important than the effect it has on my spiritual walk? If so, that
would make things simpler.

Originally posted by catstorm
Thank you. Are you saying that the correct interpretation of a verse
Is less important than the effect it has on my spiritual walk? If so, that
would make things simpler.

If it closes your heart towards Christ or
makes you want to be independent from Christ,
something is wrong with the way you are taking of the passage/s.

If you have anything like an attraction to Jesus Christ and the interpretation cools that down, something is wrong. It could be wrong with the delivery of the passage or wrong with your heart.

In the word of God you should touch the living God.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they searched the Scripture but they would not come to Him.

John 5:39,40 - " You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify concerning Me. Yet you are not willing to come Me."

When you open the Bible you will be kept in good stead if you also pray something like this -

"Lord Jesus, I open now the Scriptures. But I do so with a desire to also COME TO YOU. I am opening now the Bible and with that willing to come to You Lord Jesus. Guard me from picking up things which turn me away from You."

If this kind of aspiration is in your heart and in your prayers to God you will be kept and guarded from damaging understandings.

Come to the word of God and Come to Christ in your heart simultaneously.
You will develop a "taste" for what is precious and what is worthless.
On the MAIN matters you will be kept by the Holy Spirit.

And if we disagree on some issues we can still respect each other? That has not always been my experience. I am a former Pentecostal.

Originally posted by catstorm
And if we disagree on some issues we can still respect each other? That has not always been my experience. I am a former Pentecostal.

Yes, we can respect and love one another.
We hold fast to the living Head of the Body.

See here how the Apostle Paul urges the Ephesian Christians to hold fast to Jesus the living Person as the HEAD. And this will protect them from being immature children tossed and jostled about like little boats on a stormy sea -

"That we [including Paul himself] may be no longer children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error,

But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

Out from whom all the Body ... etc. etc." (Eph 4:14-16a)

And the companion passage in Colossians about holding firmly to the living Head, Jesus Christ.

" ... holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together ..." (Col. 2:19)

Behind the words of the Bible taken prayerfully is the living Person of Christ the Head. The living Person can head us up and keep us in unity just as your physical head brings your whole body under its headship.

Every member of your body has a direct connection to your head. The arm, the hand, the fingers are all directly connected to your head and receive instructions from your head.

So we Christians must all HOLD fast the living Person of Jesus Who is life giving Spirit in our spirit.