Literal vs Metaphor challenge

@divegeester said
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

According to the text, I.e. the words written in the bible, we are conceived in sin. Therefore we are estranged from God before we are even born. We are at least atheist in our hearts. If this doctrine is combined with the doctrine of eternal suffering then we have and unspeakably c ...[text shortened]... be right. Therefore something is wrong with one or both of these doctrines.

Wake up Christians!

Being brought forth into iniquity is being brought into this world, a sinful mother
conceived me is just that a sinful mother conceived them. I believe you are not
giving God credit when it comes to innocent children. You prolife by this stance?

@kellyjay said
Being brought forth into iniquity is being brought into this world, a sinful mother

I notice how you dishonesty changed “in” to “into” to try and match your own view. In doesn’t say “into. Acknowledge that you changed it please.

@kellyjay said
I believe you are not
giving God credit when it comes to innocent children.

I’m not give God enough credit, what!?

You are the one accusing Jesus of torturing people alive for ETERNITY

Wake up man!!

@kellyjay said
Being brought forth into iniquity is being brought into this world, a sinful mother
conceived me is just that a sinful mother conceived them. I believe you are not
giving God credit when it comes to innocent children. You prolife by this stance?

You have no scriptural case to support you KellyJay.

According to YOUR own doctrines babies who die go straight to hell to be tortured alive for eternity.

Show me scripture which categorically says otherwise.

@kellyjay said
You prolife by this stance?

This is nothing to do with abortion or politics. Besides:

I don’t believe Jesus tortures people in fire in hell, on purpose...
I don’t believe babies go to hell
I don’t believe children go to hell
I don’t believe anyone goes to hell

YOU DO!
These are YOUR beliefs and they are wrong.

@divegeester said
You have no scriptural case to support you KellyJay.

According to YOUR own doctrines babies who die go straight to hell to be tortured alive for eternity.

Show me scripture which categorically says otherwise.

You have never seen me say that.

@divegeester said
I’m not give God enough credit, what!?

You are the one accusing Jesus of torturing people alive for ETERNITY

Wake up man!!

I'm not accusing Jesus of anything, I'm quoting the scriptures.

@divegeester said
You have no scriptural case to support you KellyJay.

According to YOUR own doctrines babies who die go straight to hell to be tortured alive for eternity.

Show me scripture which categorically says otherwise.

You have no idea what you are talking about, I will defend things I say, not things
you make up.

@divegeester said
This is nothing to do with abortion or politics. Besides:

I don’t believe Jesus tortures people in fire in hell, on purpose...
I don’t believe babies go to hell
I don’t believe children go to hell
I don’t believe anyone goes to hell

YOU DO!
These are YOUR beliefs and they are wrong.

Are you on medication?

@divegeester said
I notice how you dishonesty changed “in” to “into” to try and match your own view. In doesn’t say “into. Acknowledge that you changed it please.

I changed it because I wasn't quoting it I was talking about it. Are you okay?

@KellyJay

Kelly, these are Dive's words which I would like to comment on for you. You didn't ask. I just get tired of the same discussion with DIvegeester.

I don’t believe Jesus tortures people in fire in hell, on purpose...

The word "torment" is used in Luke 16:28. So I don't use the word "torture". But I can't deny that the rich man said where he was was a "place of torment" (Luke 16:28)

Place of "torture" = place of "torment"? Maybe. Dive likes to use "torture" for maximum revulsion.

Now in Rev. 14:10 God's wrath is expressed in the phrase - "he shall be tormented". In a place of punishment then, these who have blasphemed God to the uttermost by following Antichrist " ... shall be tormented".

There is no denying that.

The servant being disciplined in Christ's parable has him turned over to the torturers in my favorite English version, the Recovery Version.

Behold you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave as I had mercy on you? And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." (Matt. 18:33,34)

That is what is said about the PARABLE. Now when translating that to what will really happen to this servant, I am not sure what "the torturers" means.

When it comes down to the reality of the matter, it might mean that something in the punished one's own conscience are "the torturers" . Or I would not say it couldn't meant something else like angels. I just don't know.

I believe that in the case of Matthew 18:22-35 Jesus was speaking about eternally saved servants who AFTER, not before, but AFTER the second coming receive some severe punishment of a temporary nature.

The reason it is temporary is because of the next verse. There is a TERMINATION to the period of discipline UNTIL the disciplined one learns some lesson.

"And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers UNTIL he would repay all that was owed.

So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

This is not "Purgatory". It is the extreme end of the punishing of a disciplined Christian during the millennial kingdom AFTER the second coming of Christ.

Such a one will be saved yet so as through fire. (See 1 Cor. 3:13-15)

I don’t believe babies go to hell

Personally I don't believe it either. (By hell, I think he means lake of fire)

I gave verses on God showing his mercy on humans He thought were not culpable in other judgments. See Jonah, Genesis, 1 Kings.

Anyway, we do know Jesus said concerning some young children that it was not the Father's will that one of them should perish. (Matt. 18:14)

I don’t believe children go to hell

I don't know what God would consider the age of accountability. So I don't know.

In the Old Testament some children were spared from temporal judgment. And sometimes they were not.
Its hard for me to know about their eternal destiny.

I don’t believe anyone goes to hell

This contradicts the Bible, I think. It says that the rich man died and went to Hades (Hell).

" ... and the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment ..." (See Luke 16:22,23)

So how can I possibly say no one goes to Hell (Hades).

Some people say that Lazarus went to heaven.

"And the beggar [Lazarus] died, and he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom ..." (v.22)

That is not heaven. But it is the pleasant and comforting side of Hades. Strictly speaking that is in Hell (Hades) yet apart from the unpleasant punishing section of the same place.

It is also called "Paradise" in the heart of the earth. For Jesus died and went to the heart of the earth. And when he died, the believing thief crucified next to him, He said would be with Him on that same day "in Paradise".

During the three days of Jesus's being dead, He was in "the heart of the earth" or "the lower parts of the earth"

See Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9.

So as the beggar Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom to be comforted, so the believing thief next to Jesus went with Jesus on the day they died, to Paradise in the lower parts of the earth, in the heart of the earth.

And He said to him, Truly, truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

YOU DO!
These are YOUR beliefs and they are wrong.

I don't know what your beliefs are per se. But I commented briefly on each of his points HE SAYS are, whether they are or not.

@sonship said
@KellyJay

Kelly, these are Dive's words which I would like to comment on for you. You didn't ask. I just get tired of the same discussion with DIvegeester.

I don’t believe Jesus tortures people in fire in hell, on purpose...

The word "torment" is used in Luke 16:28. So I don't use the word "torture". But I can't deny that the rich ...[text shortened]... iefs are per se. But I commented briefly on each of his points HE SAYS are, whether they are or not.

It does appear he has a thought in his head and he judges everything by that, so what is actually said and written don’t matter as much as what he thinks.

@kellyjay said
You have never seen me say that.

Good then you agree that I am correct and that you are merely speculating.

@kellyjay said
I'm not accusing Jesus of anything, I'm quoting the scriptures.

Me too with being "brought forth in iniquity".

@kellyjay said
You have no idea what you are talking about, I will defend things I say, not things
you make up.

Go ahead then...