Little Flock?

Originally posted by galveston75
What do you mean," Maybe not the same". Of course they are and where would you like them to rule from?

The number 144,000 is highly symbolic and it could be used with more than one group of people.

The group in chapter 7 are all Jews.

The group in ch.7 are sealed with "the seal of the living God" (4:2).
The group in ch. 14 have have the name of Christ and the name of His Father written on their foreheads (14:1) I think reveals a difference.

The former are Jews related God's faithfulness to preserve some of Israel from the old covenant before God was incarnated to be the Lamb.

The latter are related to the new covenant for the Lamb's name is upon them, and the His Father, I think, speaks more of regeneration and being born of God with His divine life. This is not the "Father" in the sense of God the Creator but in the sense of God imparting His Holy Spirit into them for being born of the Spirit.

The second group is raptured because they rippen early. This is why they are called firstfruits. In the same chapter they are followed by the "harvest". This difference implies that they mature early. The firstfruits ripen in the field before the harvest ripens.

Growth is implied if firstfruits and ripening is mentioned. This growth should be related to the growth of God's life which is in them because of His causing the new covenant people to be born again.

Some, a remnant, cooperate with the grace of God to ripen and mature early. They are firstfruits. The majority procrastinate and require the heat of the great tribulation to cause them to mature and ripen.

Therefore because in 14 you have firstdruits, followed by the discription of great persecution, followed by harvest the meaning is that:

A minority, a remnant cooperate to grow with God's Spirit before the great tribulation and are raptured. The great tribulation comes. The majority who were left behind yet who are believers in Jesus, are ripened in matured in the heat and persecution of the great tribulation.

So I think the difference is that the 144,000 Jews in chapter 7 are simply preserved by God's mercy. The group of 144,000 believers in chapter 14 are those who cooperated through growth to an early maturity and early rapture.

They are taken as firstfruits for the satisfaction of the Father early before the great tribulation and early before the physical descent of Christ to the earth.

Nothing particular do I recall about their "responsibilities" once in heaven. I think the emphasis is that as Firstfruits they are a tasty pleasure to the Father for His enjoyment.

Furthermore the 144,000 in chapter 4 are simply preserved. The 144,000 in chapter 14 are those who followed the Lamb where ever He went.

This could highlight a difference. Though 12 times 12 times 1000 does speak of perfection on a great massive scale.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So God/Christ will select a group of 144K Jews to judge. And these people will know who they are?

Whats the relevance of that to the rest of us?

"In Revelation 7 there is a group of 144,000 Jews. Basically it only says that they are sealed by God and preserved." - Jaywill

i thought these were spiritual Jews, i.e. in the sense that they are not literal Jews but are Jews on the inside,

"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh.  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God."

Romans 2:28,29

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
"In Revelation 7 there is a group of 144,000 Jews. Basically it only says that they are sealed by God and preserved." - Jaywill

i thought these were spiritual Jews, i.e. in the sense that they are not literal Jews but are Jews on the inside,

"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon ...[text shortened]... a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God."

Romans 2:28,29

Thanks Robbie. I knew that scripture but couldn't find it...

((((They are taken as firstfruits for the satisfaction of the Father early before the great tribulation and early before the physical descent of Christ to the earth. ))))



Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?

Originally posted by galveston75
((((They are taken as firstfruits for the satisfaction of the Father early before the great tribulation and early before the physical descent of Christ to the earth. ))))



Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?

I thought you knew the bible but I was wrong.
If you can ask this question then you are just a little brainwashed kid.
You are not ready to discuss the bible just yet.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I thought you knew the bible but I was wrong.
If you can ask this question then you are just a little brainwashed kid.
You are not ready to discuss the bible just yet.

Ok..Nice comment to make but whatever...
So you think you know the Bible? So where did Jesus ever say he would be coming back to earth as a human? What would this be for exactly? Wasn't he here once already? Why come back again when he already gave his life for us, accomplished what needed to be done and made it very clear that his Kingdom will be in Heaven. And it wouldn't make much sence for him to come here and the ones that are to be resurrected to go to heaven to serve with him as priest. They would kind of miss each other in transit wouldn't they?
Yes I know very well the scriptures that you refer to and think that it means Jesus will come back to earth. But none of them mean in a physical body. Acts 13:34 says he will never return in a human body. Again he could never do that because it would cancel the sacrifice he did for us all. Jesus is a spirit creature now and will always be that. All the srciptures are saying is his presence or his rulership will be very obvious to all humans. Just one example of this is at Dan 7: 13,14. So...think about this and why he couldn't come back to earth as a human.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok..Nice comment to make but whatever...
So you think you know the Bible? So where did Jesus ever say he would be coming back to earth as a human? What would this be for exactly? Wasn't he here once already? Why come back again when he already gave his life for us, accomplished what needed to be done and made it very clear that his Kingdom will be in H ...[text shortened]... is at Dan 7: 13,14. So...think about this and why he couldn't come back to earth as a human.

Your first question was

Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?

Then you changed it to:

where did Jesus ever say he would be coming back to earth as a human?


Anyway here are passages that refer to Christ's return. But I know will put your own spin on it.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

JOH 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Originally posted by galveston75
The Bible is very clear on this simple question. Why is it so hard? How many are in the Little Flock? That is one question of this thread, Right?
This is a very important thing to know especially for those of you who think your saved and going to heaven. There is a specific number that the Bible says will be going and to do a specific job and for only ...[text shortened]... f so Jesus would not have made a differance between them and just called them one or the other.

Do you really understand this passage in Revelation?

It says 144,000
It says they will be men.
It says they will be virgins
It says they will be without sin
It says they will follow Christ wherever he went
It says they will be from the 12 tribes of Israel.

So that claim about being a Jew inwardly does not apply to this group. They are all decendents of Jacob.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Your first question was

Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?

Then you changed it to:

where did Jesus ever say he would be coming back to earth as a human?


Anyway here are passages that refer to Christ's return. But I know will put your own spin on it.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into ...[text shortened]... they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

( Acts 1:11 ) Jesus was a spirit when he was leaving earth, so he will be a spirit when he returns in his presence. They couldn't see him once he left them. We can't see him once he returns.

( John 14:3) He says he's prepaired a place for them and will take them to it. Where is this place other then heaven? It says it's where he's been, right?

(Matt 24:27-31 ) These say nothing about him being on the earth but in the heavens. Again if he was a human somehow floating up in the sky, how could all humans see him?

So I ask you in your own words, how exactly in your opinion is he going to be here sitting on his throne? On the earth itself at some location we can actually walk up to and see with our own eyes or floating around the atmosphere somehow? Just your own words will do...

Originally posted by galveston75
( Acts 1:11 ) Jesus was a spirit when he was leaving earth, so he will be a spirit when he returns in his presence. They couldn't see him once he left them. We can't see him once he returns.

( John 14:3) He says he's prepaired a place for them and will take them to it. Where is this place other then heaven? It says it's where he's been, right?
...[text shortened]... with our own eyes or floating around the atmosphere somehow? Just your own words will do...

That post makes absolutely no sense.
The more you talk the more I am seeing conclusions based on incorrect assumptions.

Are you part of the group of Christians who think they are the 144,000 ? If so then you are on a slippery slope. That 144,000 are Jews ie direct descendents of Jacob.

Originally posted by Rajk999
That post makes absolutely no sense.
The more you talk the more I am seeing conclusions based on incorrect assumptions.

Are you part of the group of Christians who think they are the 144,000 ? If so then you are on a slippery slope. That 144,000 are Jews ie direct descendents of Jacob.

No I am not part of the 144,000. I know I don't meet those qualifications.
And sorry you don't get the scriptures on this and can't answer my question about how will he be here on earth? Spirit, human or what?

Originally posted by galveston75
((((They are taken as firstfruits for the satisfaction of the Father early before the great tribulation and early before the physical descent of Christ to the earth. ))))



Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?

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Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?
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Quite a few places.

For example - Acts 1:10,11:

"And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven."

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==========================
Where does the Bible say Jesus will return to earth?
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Quite a few places.

For example - Acts 1:10,11:

"And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you s ...[text shortened]... up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven." [/b]

Cross reference Dan 7:13, Matt 26:64, Rev 1:7. It's interesting to note in Rev. that the ones who pierced him will see him too. How could that be since they've been dead for a few thousand years?
But again none of these say once he would be human and walking on the face of this planet.

Originally posted by galveston75
( Acts 1:11 ) Jesus was a spirit when he was leaving earth, so he will be a spirit when he returns in his presence. They couldn't see him once he left them. We can't see him once he returns.

( John 14:3) He says he's prepaired a place for them and will take them to it. Where is this place other then heaven? It says it's where he's been, right?
...[text shortened]... with our own eyes or floating around the atmosphere somehow? Just your own words will do...

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( Acts 1:11 ) Jesus was a spirit when he was leaving earth, so he will be a spirit when he returns in his presence. They couldn't see him once he left them. We can't see him once he returns.
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The New Testament makes sure that we understand that Jesus the man resurrected. They touched Him. He ate some fish before them. They observed the wounds in His body. And He presented Himself to them "by many infallible proofs" (Acts 1:3)

Christ's being a life giving Spirit per (1 Cor. 15:45) relates to Him indwelling His believers as their spiritual life.

This does not mean that He is not a physical man with a glorified body in heaven. If you will notice in the book of Romans chapter 8 Christ is two places at one time.

He is "at the right hand of God" (8:34). And He is also indwelling the disciples - "But if Christ is in you ..." (8:10). [/b]

This is why it is important for the repentent sinner to "receive" Christ - " .. His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him to them He gave the authority to become children of God ..." (See John 1:11-13)

Christ today is the life giving Spirit for indwelling His believers. Yet He is also "the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

And as God incarnate in His second coming the Bible says His feet shall touch down on the Mount of Olives right out side of Jerusalem:

"Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in the day of battle. And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives ..." (See Zechariah 14:1-5).

Those will be the same glorious resurrected feet that the disiples laid hold on when they saw Him in His resurrected state:

"And behold Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came to Him and took hold of His feet and wortshipped Him." (Matt. 28:9)

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( John 14:3) He says he's prepaired a place for them and will take them to it. Where is this place other then heaven? It says it's where he's been, right?
=========================================

The place that Jesus went to prepare for the disciples is a "place" in God the Father and in Himself. This is not heavenly mansions. This place is a living Person and He is the living Way to Him. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

He went to the cross to die for our sins. In that way He redeemed those who believe in Him and they have a place IN God. They have a standing in the Father and the Father and the Son can come into them and make an abode with them (John 14:23)

He went to prepare many abodes in the Father's house (v.2). In verse 23 the singular of the same Greek word proves that these abodes are living people indwelt with by the Father and the Son - "... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him and make an abode with him." (v.23)

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(Matt 24:27-31 ) These say nothing about him being on the earth but in the heavens. Again if he was a human somehow floating up in the sky, how could all humans see him?
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On the contrary. Christ will miraculously come on a cloud. He will come with an army of overcoming believers at the end of the great tribulation. And He will PHYSICALLY fight against the Antichrist and his armies.

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him." (Rev. 1:7)

Before He physically comes down He will do some other things from His throne in heaven (where ever that is). And He will also come close to the earth and hover near the earth for a period of time being concealed from view. Nature will react to His closeness and there will be no doubt that something momentous is about to come upon the planet.

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So I ask you in your own words, how exactly in your opinion is he going to be here sitting on his throne?
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Christ will set up the throne of His glory in Jerusalem. See Matthew 15.

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On the earth itself at some location we can actually walk up to and see with our own eyes or floating around the atmosphere somehow? Just your own words will do...
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There will be a time when Jesus Christ will be seated on His throne in Jerusalem. That will be the capital of the world so to speak.

If you are a Christian you will one day stand before the one Who also lives inside of you.

If you are not saved you will also see Him, if you are able to stand it. I would not want to appear before Jesus Christ an unforgiven sinner. As a matter of fact I do not want to appear before Jesus Christ as a immature and slothful Christian either, who loves the world more than God.

Today Christ is the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17)

And tomorrow His feet will stand upon the mountian in Israel. He will be the life giving Spirit for eternity. And for eternity He will also be "the man Christ Jesus" Who is God become a man.

Any further questions about this ?