1. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 04:25
    After discussing various topics with atheists and agnostics something has been bothering me. Many have alleged that the God of the Bible is not always logical and thus deduce that he cannot possibly exist. Also the God of the Bible at times seems contradictory. An example I guess would be when he commands us not to kill but then turns around and commands men to kill at various times and, in fact, kills via his own hand at times.

    The definition of logic is 1. sound reasoning, clear thinking. 2. a way or method of reasoning. 3. study of ways and methods or reasoning or clear thinking.

    By these definitions it is clear to me that logical thinking must be "clear" and "sound". How then do we judge whether or not a way of thinking is clear and sound? Must we not first have the ability to see the world as they do? For example, does a 2 year old child see the logic of their parent telling them not to run out into traffic? Lets say the parent then grabs the child and begins spanking them. Why does the parent spank them? Do they not love them? Why does the parent not first try and reason with the two year old?
  2. Earth
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    25 Feb '07 05:02
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing various topics with atheists and agnostics something has been bothering me. Many have alleged that the God of the Bible is not always logical and thus deduce that he cannot possibly exist. Also the God of the Bible at times seems contradictory. An example I guess would be when he commands us not to kill but then turns around and commands m ...[text shortened]... Do they not love them? Why does the parent not first try and reason with the two year old?
    how can the finite comprehend the Infinite; how
    can a drop contain the ocean or a mote dancing in the sunbeam
    embrace the universe?

    (Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 201)
  3. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 05:13
    Originally posted by Varqa
    how can the finite comprehend the Infinite; how
    can a drop contain the ocean or a mote dancing in the sunbeam
    embrace the universe?

    (Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 201)
    Indeed. If God is everything he says he is which is infinite and all knowing, he MUST appear illogical at times to us because we are not even close to this level of reasoning. This would, in fact, be one criteria for his existance.
  4. Standard memberAcemaster
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    25 Feb '07 06:01
    Just like God said that there are new colors in Heaven. He's not talking about variations of the colors we have now, but new ones. But, the human mind cannot concieve new colors, thus deeming it 'illogical'.
  5. Melbourne, Australia
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    25 Feb '07 06:16
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing various topics with atheists and agnostics something has been bothering me. Many have alleged that the God of the Bible is not always logical and thus deduce that he cannot possibly exist. Also the God of the Bible at times seems contradictory. An example I guess would be when he commands us not to kill but then turns around and commands m ...[text shortened]... Do they not love them? Why does the parent not first try and reason with the two year old?
    Don't read too much into the logic thing W.
    The reality is that atheists deny God's existence, full stop. The logic stuff is simply used as an after the fact rationalisation for this.
  6. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 13:41
    Originally posted by amannion
    Don't read too much into the logic thing W.
    The reality is that atheists deny God's existence, full stop. The logic stuff is simply used as an after the fact rationalisation for this.
    That's just not true.
  7. Standard memberdj2becker
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    25 Feb '07 14:06
    Originally posted by amannion
    Don't read too much into the logic thing W.
    The reality is that atheists deny God's existence, full stop. The logic stuff is simply used as an after the fact rationalisation for this.
    Profound words.
  8. Melbourne, Australia
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    25 Feb '07 21:58
    Originally posted by Starrman
    That's just not true.
    Of course it is.
    Rationalise it how you will but you can neither logically deny God's existence or logically prove that it exists. I think the history of philosophy draws that conclusion out ... dare I say, logically?
  9. CA, USA
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    25 Feb '07 22:11
    Not too many strong atheists. Extremely hard position to defend .. logically.
    Requires one to know everything.

    You won't find many this arrogant, most are weak atheists. A weak atheist simply says "I don't believe it.", a true atheist will claim "There is no God."

    Most rational people are skeptics IMO, believing that the absolute knowledge of God's existence is unobtainable by mere man.
  10. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 22:13
    Originally posted by Varqa
    how can the finite comprehend the Infinite; how
    can a drop contain the ocean or a mote dancing in the sunbeam
    embrace the universe?

    (Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 201)
    This is a dangerous and repressive line of thought.

    Many of the greatest mathematical minds produced great leaps in our understanding of the universe by understanding aspects of the infinite.

    Newton was widely criticised by religious figures because of his supposed arrogance.

    Archimedes, Newton and Einstein all produced great advances by considering the nature of infinitely big and infinitely small.

    They did it by logical thought.
  11. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 22:33
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing various topics with atheists and agnostics something has been bothering me. Many have alleged that the God of the Bible is not always logical and thus deduce that he cannot possibly exist. Also the God of the Bible at times seems contradictory. An example I guess would be when he commands us not to kill but then turns around and commands m ...[text shortened]... Do they not love them? Why does the parent not first try and reason with the two year old?
    The parent - child analogy is not a good one as a parent cannot chose exactly what a child is going to be like or what the world is going to be like or know what the future is like.

    You seem to want to create even more excuses to carry on your belief system.

    You do not need to, it is possible to create a logically consistent system, so long as you don't make any conditions that can be tested.

    If god is all seeing/all powerful and created the universe and everything in it. It is not logical that we then have free will. It is not logical to create the world full of punishment for innocents. It is not logical to have a bible that contains so many lies. It is not logical to only give your message to small numbers of people in such an inefficient and unfair manner.
  12. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 22:56
    Originally posted by petrosianpupil
    The parent - child analogy is not a good one as a parent cannot chose exactly what a child is going to be like or what the world is going to be like or know what the future is like.

    You seem to want to create even more excuses to carry on your belief system.

    You do not need to, it is possible to create a logically consistent system, so long as ...[text shortened]... to only give your message to small numbers of people in such an inefficient and unfair manner.
    Only man punishes the innocent.
    It is only your opinion that the bible has lies in it.
    The bible is the most widely published book in the world.
  13. Joined
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    25 Feb '07 23:01
    Originally posted by Acemaster
    Just like God said that there are new colors in Heaven. He's not talking about variations of the colors we have now, but new ones. But, the human mind cannot concieve new colors, thus deeming it 'illogical'.
    And to think that an infinite and omniscient God inspired a book that a third grader can read and understand.
  14. Melbourne, Australia
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    25 Feb '07 23:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    Only man punishes the innocent.
    It is only your opinion that the bible has lies in it.
    The bible is the most widely published book in the world.
    Having lots of people read something (or at least buy it) doesn't make it any more or less convincing.
    Lots of people agreed that societies were full of witches during the middle ages. Didn't make them right.
  15. Melbourne, Australia
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    25 Feb '07 23:19
    Originally posted by jammer
    Not too many strong atheists. Extremely hard position to defend .. logically.
    Requires one to know everything.

    You won't find many this arrogant, most are weak atheists. A weak atheist simply says "I don't believe it.", a true atheist will claim "There is no God."

    Most rational people are skeptics IMO, believing that the absolute knowledge of God's existence is unobtainable by mere man.
    I don't consider it arrogance any more than belief in a God would be called arrogance.
    In the end, there is no way to logically prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being. So my position of complete and utter disbelief - strong atheism you call it - is for me an ethical/moral position rather than one I've arrived at through logic or reasoning. Mind you, this is not to say that I don't think I can defend an atheist position - but never absolutely.
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