Originally posted by divegeester
Interesting folklore. I bet Christmas is fun in your house! (joke)

Of course christmas, santa, st nick, krampus, dec 25th and annual ceremonies have nothing to do with following christ or indeed true christianity whatsoever, as I'm sure you are aware.

DG

PS God is not frightened of getting his "hands dirty". Heb 10:31

I stand corrected. Of course god has done more than his fair share of dirty work. Such as drowning almost everyone in the great flood, or smiting all the firstborn of Egypt and their cattle. You know, little things like that. But within the contemporary world, christians like to blame Satan for all evil while claiming that god has nothing to do with it. I say its a package deal.

I would wager that the only difference between Christmas at my house and the one at yours is that I have no use for Christ.

Originally posted by rwingett
I do not believe that there is any over-arching system of TRUTH. I suspect, instead, that there are many, many small truths. Some, like mathematics, are necessarily true. Others, like anything related to human conduct, are only provisionally true. Every person may have any number of individual truths within their grasp, but anyone who claims to have the who ...[text shortened]... osephw to assuredly claim that he possesses it is an astounding display of arrogance and hubris.

its all very confusing, there are many small truths, but no all encompassing truth? and why not? do not all the constituent parts make a whole? and why should there be mathematical truths but no objective religious truth? why should truth be limited to an individual discipline and fail to exist within the realms of human morality? are there not universal laws which govern the entire human race as is evidenced by our 'natural', inclination towards the exercise of conscience?, or do you deny that conscience exists (see Nuremberg trials)? as far as Joseph is concerned, why should it be considered arrogance if he claims that his truth is all encompassing and universal, simply because you state that it is not, surly just because we state something dose not necessarily mean that it is true, especially as in your case, you stated that you were unsure even of its existence thus putting all subsequent remarks into the realm of conjecture. either truth exists or it does not! if it exists then why should Joseph not be a recipient of it? if he is a recipient of it then surely its his duty to proclaim this fact to others, which after all is what mankind has been searching for, in your own words, throughout its history. in fact it could be argued that he has done you a favour in doing so, but you have relegated his truth on the basis of what? that there are only small truths, but no universal truth..mmmmm. would you get in an aeroplane if the universal laws of aerodynamics did not exist? would you get in the plane if they existed but only in a small or relative way, or were subject to interpretation and postulation? yet these are the very same standards with which you have rejected josephs 'truths' and reduced them to the realms of dogma, in that truth exists in only a limited way and is in no way universal, is it not so?

Originally posted by rwingett
I stand corrected. Of course god has done more than his fair share of dirty work. Such as drowning almost everyone in the great flood, or smiting all the firstborn of Egypt and their cattle. You know, little things like that. But within the contemporary world, christians like to blame Satan for all evil while claiming that god has nothing to do with it. I s ...[text shortened]... difference between Christmas at my house and the one at yours is that I have no use for Christ.

i would declare that you have more need of christ than you probably realise, or are you a god, able to determine your own morality?

Originally posted by rwingett
I stand corrected. Of course god has done more than his fair share of dirty work. Such as drowning almost everyone in the great flood, or smiting all the firstborn of Egypt and their cattle. You know, little things like that. But within the contemporary world, christians like to blame Satan for all evil while claiming that god has nothing to do with it. I s ...[text shortened]... difference between Christmas at my house and the one at yours is that I have no use for Christ.

I'm sure christmas is great at your place - sorry for that cheap shot!

It is very difficult for anyone interested to understand the "wrath" of God in most of the biblical examples. "How could God do such things?" The bible teaches that we are all lost, all gone astray from the begining so without him we are doomed anyway.

The concepts of God's judgement and God's mercy in relation to his plan, not to the events themselves, can only be understood in the light of and belief in that plan, which is one of redemption worked out over millenia through his prophets and peoples. And is summed up in Jn 3:16.

The good news of this free salvation is so simple that some people can't believe it - it is foolishness to the gentiles and a stumbling block to the jews, etc. Satan's job is to keep us from that salvation by anymeans - apparently benign or apparently evil - whatever.

I'm not a "dogmatic" christian by any means, I don't attend organised religion at all actually, but I do believe that God is soveringn and I trust in him.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]
It seems that almost everyone balks at this.
[/b]

Is this a surprise in your opinion?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i would declare that you have more need of christ than you probably realise, or are you a god, able to determine your own morality?

I, personally, do not determine my own morality. But specific moral codes are entirely a human convention which are subject to gradual change over time. Despite their claims of 'moral absolutism' this applies equally to christians as well as non-christians.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm sure christmas is great at your place - sorry for that cheap shot!

It is very difficult for anyone interested to understand the "wrath" of God in most of the biblical examples. "How could God do such things?" The bible teaches that we are all lost, all gone astray from the begining so without him we are doomed anyway.

The concepts of God's ...[text shortened]... eligion at all actually, but I do believe that God is soveringn and I trust in him.

The bible teaches that we are all lost, all gone astray from the begining so without him we are doomed anyway.

As I've said in other threads, this doctrine of original sin is by far the most vile concept ever devised. I can't think of a more psychologically damaging sentiment to raise people in. Even if no other reasons existed, the doctrine of original sin alone would be sufficient for condemning christianity to the dustbin of history.

Originally posted by rwingett
[b]The bible teaches that we are all lost, all gone astray from the begining so without him we are doomed anyway.

As I've said in other threads, this doctrine of original sin is by far the most vile concept ever devised. I can't think of a more psychologically damaging sentiment to raise people in. Even if no other reasons existed, the doctrine of original sin alone would be sufficient for condemning christianity to the dustbin of history.[/b]

"this doctrine of original sin is by far the most vile concept ever devised. I can't think of a more psychologically damaging sentiment to raise people in"


Strong words. What was it that happened to make you feel so bitter?

"Original sin" - you mean from Adam of course? This is not christian in origin it's from the old testament - the jews/hebrews etc.

Jesus death (in 'christianity'😉 pays the price for that inherited sin - we were all in Adam at that time and therefore we have inherited that sinfull nature. You know this I'm sure.

As for Christianity being confined to the dustbin of history - well it didn't happen did it! It's here and people believe in it and are happy.

Originally posted by divegeester
"this doctrine of original sin is by far the most vile concept ever devised. I can't think of a more psychologically damaging sentiment to raise people in"


Strong words. What was it that happened to make you feel so bitter?

"Original sin" - you mean from Adam of course? This is not christian in origin it's from the old testament - the jews/heb ...[text shortened]... y - well it didn't happen did it! It's here and people believe in it and are happy.

I have some of my objections to original sin in the 'charming story?' thread. I don't want to have to re-type them all here.

Originally posted by rwingett
I have some of my objections to original sin in the 'charming story?' thread. I don't want to have to re-type them all here.

Had a read though your other posts and picked up the same strength of feeling around the phychological aspect. It sounds like you know someone who has been mentally abused, if so that is a terrible thing for one person to do to another, especially in the name of christ.

It's not something I've personally come across although we've all heard of cults and incidents of religious brain washing, even your average mainsteam church lording it over the laity at times (a incident in my life actually).

Jesus said these so called religious leaders were "full of dead mens bones". If you look at him you see the truth of christianity.

Originally posted by rwingett
[b]The bible teaches that we are all lost, all gone astray from the begining so without him we are doomed anyway.

As I've said in other threads, this doctrine of original sin is by far the most vile concept ever devised. I can't think of a more psychologically damaging sentiment to raise people in. Even if no other reasons existed, the doctrine of original sin alone would be sufficient for condemning christianity to the dustbin of history.[/b]

What is vile, my dear rwingett, is that such phenomenon as war, poverty, hunger, sickness, etc, are a continuous and perpetual companion of humanity. Why these things are is of to interpretation. You seem to indicate that you think that religion causes these things when, in reality, all it does is to try and explain why they exist for the most part within the darkness of the human soul. I don't deny that some PEOPLE use religion for other peoples ill but what does all this say about the human soul, especially if God does not exist as you claim?

Originally posted by whodey
What is vile, my dear rwingett, is that such phenomenon as war, poverty, hunger, sickness, etc, are a continuous and perpetual companion of humanity. Why these things are is of to interpretation. You seem to indicate that you think that religion causes these things when, in reality, all it does is to try and explain why they exist for the most part within t ...[text shortened]... but what does all this say about the human soul, especially if God does not exist as you claim?

What? Where do you get that from? Nowhere in this thread have I said that religion was the cause of war, poverty, hunger and sickness. What I said was that the doctrine of original sin was a psychologically damaging one, that it degrades a person's sense of self-worth and fills them with unnecessary guilt. Plus it's not for anything they've actually done, they are born with it. Original sin teaches people that they are inherently worthless creatures from birth. It is an abomination.

What christianity does is to tear people down, convince them that they are sinful and worthless creatures, regardless of what they've done, and then have the gall to offer up a cure to the disease that its own doctrine has created. If people just quit believing in the doctrine of original sin and just quit believing that they are inherently sinful and worthless creatures then they wouldn't need the salvation that christianity is peddling.

But that wouldn't be too good for organized religions. If people were raised with a strong sense of self worth, if they were raised to believe that they are inherently good, then nobody would have any need for the church's services. Maybe they would believe in god and maybe they wouldn't, but they wouldn't NEED the church. But that's not good enough. The church insures that its services will be NEEDED by first tricking people into believing that they are inherently worthless, and then by positioning themselves as the only cure to that condition. It is a fraudulent con game run by complete charlatans.

Originally posted by rwingett
You aren't just telling me what you believe. You are saying, with certainty, that I will go to hell for not believing it too. That's the difference.

I do not claim that christianity is the cause of much of the world's ills. I claim that religious fundamentalists are the cause of them. I am not blaming any particular faith, I am blaming faith in general. ...[text shortened]... angerous fraud and a charlatan. Your faith, and others of its ilk, are the bane of the earth.

"I repeat my accusations, josephw. You are a dangerous fraud and a charlatan. Your faith, and others of its ilk, are the bane of the earth."

I'm a fraud and a charlatan because I say I believe what the Bible teaches? Then why aren't I calling you the same thing for saying there is no God? I'm not your judge.

I will say this about you though. Your hatred of, and your bitterness toward those of us who profess faith in God and His son Jesus Christ, isn't going to help you or anyone else, and will only add to that which you so erroneously claim to be the fault of those of faith.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"I repeat my accusations, josephw. You are a dangerous fraud and a charlatan. Your faith, and others of its ilk, are the bane of the earth."

I'm a fraud and a charlatan because I say I believe what the Bible teaches? Then why aren't I calling you the same thing for saying there is no God? I'm not your judge.

I will say this about you though. You ...[text shortened]... nd will only add to that which you so erroneously claim to be the fault of those of faith.[/b]

I do not say there is no god. I have no way of knowing if there is a god, and neither do you. What I DO say is that since I see no evidence to indicate that your god exists, I cannot believe in him.

Originally posted by rwingett
I do not say there is no god. I have no way of knowing if there is a god, and neither do you. What I DO say is that since I see no evidence to indicate that your god exists, I cannot believe in him.

ummm one may ask what evidence have you examined to reach your conclusion that it seems impossible to determine whether god exists and secondly if you have not examined the basis of Josephs evidence then how can you make the claim that he cannot know if God exists or otherwise?

what if god has communed with him directly and you were not party to it, does that negate josephs insistence that he has evidence? is it not a reality for Joseph, and by the same application of logic, you have no way to disprove this reality, but granted experiences are very difficult, if not impossible to disprove or otherwise, but to state that Joseph has no way of knowing is to discount the overwhelming evidence in the natural creation, the cosmos etc etc, the application of Christian principles in a persons life, the integrity and internal harmony of scripture itself giving evidence of inspiration.

i mean what evidence have you actually examined in your quest? perhaps you are content to submit to passivity, i cannot possibly know if god exists, therefore i will not bother! or perhaps you are like the noble knight in Ingmar Bergman's famous film, the seventh seal, all you need is something tangible! however i say to you, that many, even after having perceived the miracles of Christ refused to believe that Christ was who he said he was, if you witnessed a miracle would you believe? many in Christs time apparently did witness, yet they refused to acknowledge his divine nature. what about you, what would it take for you to believe? how much evidence would you need?