Man created in the likeness of God?

Originally posted by twhitehead
The key point everyone seems to be missing is that from a theist perspective, killing is only wrong because God says so. It is not inherently wrong or evil. If God had not put in the ten commandments "thou shalt not kill" then there would be nothing wrong with killing someone. After all, you may be simply expediting their entry to heaven.

I object to J ...[text shortened]... pediting it can only be seen as a good thing - unless heaven is not all it is make up to be.

what? you are saying that killing is wrong only because god said so? or that a theist would go around killing people if god wouldn't have said so? do you realize how you insult every believer with even moderate intelligence?

Originally posted by jaywill
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You really worked hard for your last posting, did you?
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Let me know when your relevant comments start.

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Yur wrote: And where did you pick up the concept that killing people was wrong anyway?

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If you're an athiest t ...[text shortened]... of your atheism.

Has the 20th century passed you by completely unnoticed? Wake up.[/b]

" If you're an athiest then what diff does it make if you kill or not? Everybody will peacefully melt away into the dust of the earth. There is no final accounting or judgment in atheism."

so what youre saying is that you only abstain from killing because god says so? that you only abstain because of fear of god's punishment? that being an atheist means you can have no moral values? ooooo you are so going to hell.

saying that only through faith in god does one have moral values is like an atheist saying that all believers are retards. equally wrong, ignorant statements



Do you have stats on how many wars were avoided because of God?

name a war avoided because of god. where the parties gathered and said: "what would jesus do? let's all hug and make up"

" Pol Pot killed millions in the name of your atheism. Stalin slaughters millions in the name of your atheism. Mao killed millions in the name of your atheism.

Has the 20th century passed you by completely unnoticed? Wake up."

what difference does it make who a psycho refers to when he kills someone? is mao any less justifiable than torquemada because one was atheist and one was not? how about terrorists who ignorantly believe they are doing god's will? or you put them in the damned group along with the atheists because they dont' believe in the one true religion(ie your religion)?

when you're free, call me, we will go bring the word of god to the non believers through a crusade.(or maybe once we're there we will just take their money)

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what? you are saying that killing is wrong only because god said so? or that a theist would go around killing people if god wouldn't have said so? do you realize how you insult every believer with even moderate intelligence?

Please explain why you take it as an insult. Why is killing wrong if not because it was dictated so by God?

Originally posted by jaywill
If you're an athiest then what diff does it make if you kill or not? Everybody will peacefully melt away into the dust of the earth. There is no final accounting or judgment in atheism.

Do you have a problem with that? Do you object to us atheists going on killing sprees? You know perfectly well that we sin in sooo many other ways - and I believe that the sin of denying the existence of God is often considered a worse sin than murder.

And what difference does it make for you if you commit murder? I thought you were a sinner too. I also thought that God will be forgiving your sins. Are some sins unforgivable?

I'm getting confused about this final accounting thing. In some threads some Christians keep telling me how the unique and special thing about Christianity is the absence of a final accounting, and now here you are telling me the opposite.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please explain why you take it as an insult. Why is killing wrong if not because it was dictated so by God?

from what you say one would understand that theists are incapable of doing something that god didn't put in the ten commandments or made a comment in the bible. but atheists have no such problem.

so from what you are saying, atheists can think for themselves and theists can only discern right from wrong with the help of god? if that is what you are saying it is indeed an insult

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
from what you say one would understand that theists are incapable of doing something that god didn't put in the ten commandments or made a comment in the bible. but atheists have no such problem.

so from what you are saying, atheists can think for themselves and theists can only discern right from wrong with the help of god? if that is what you are saying it is indeed an insult

You misunderstand me. What I am saying is that from a theists point of view right and wrong are defined by God.

I am also saying that without Gods commandment there should be absolutely no reason why you should discern for yourself that killing is wrong. In fact you could possibly come to the opposite conclusion.

Are you a theist and if so, how would you discern right from wrong without Gods help? On what grounds? What would be your discernment for killing? Why?

Some atheists, such as I, have no such problems because we base our morals on different grounds which would be invalid if God existed. Other atheists have their own ideas. We are not a group based on common beliefs we are a group based on common absence of a specific belief.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You misunderstand me. What I am saying is that from a theists point of view right and wrong are defined by God.

I am also saying that without Gods commandment there should be absolutely no reason why you should discern for yourself that killing is wrong. In fact you could possibly come to the opposite conclusion.

Are you a theist and if so, how woul ...[text shortened]... not a group based on common beliefs we are a group based on common absence of a specific belief.

not all theists believe only god can tell right from wrong. in fact, all theists should KNOW that not only god can make right from wrong? why? because we did eat some apples(nowhere in the bible says that the fruit of knowledge is an apple but let's skip that technicality)

so when adam took the fruit of knowledge he was like god, able to tell truth from untruth, right from wrong. and he was evicted so as not to eat from the tree of life too. so you see, true zealots should in fact have no problem believing they can decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. (of course you have a point, most zealots have a phobia of thinking for themselves)


on a side note, i believe in god and i am telling you that i will not stone an adulteress woman to death. and i do not think that makes me a sinner.

I haven't read the whole thread so I dunno if this is mentioned before. But it might be interesting to point out that Christianity is the only monotheistic religion that claims Mankind is made in the image of God. Although genesis is also in the Torah, jews have a different interpretation of it. And as for Islam; muslims believe that any concept or image you envision of God does him short. This reminds me of a quote I heard recently:
"Most atheists I've talked to do not believe in a very specific God, a God that I myself as a theist also do not believe in."

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Hitler killed 6 million people, God killed almost every man on earth at that time.Who is the most cruel one? Hitler believed in god, but he wasn't near of what god did in terms of genocide.

The big difference is that Hitler was real, and he was finally brought down and his forces defeated.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil says:

"Evil is used to describe intentional acts that are cruel"

I think you'd have to specify that the cruelty was gratuitous or otherwise unjustified. If somebody broke into my house and microwaved the cat, that would be evil. If I beat them to death for this, that would be just.

Actually, sentient beings aren't evil. Nobody would choose that, after all. All of the evilness comes from defective pseudo-sentients posing as human beings. Free-will doesn't presuppose the existence of evil. That's a myth.

Originally posted by Dance Master MC
If man was created in the likeness of God, why do retards (disfigured people) exist? Are they the Devil's offspring?

Actually, if you read the Bible (Genesis 1:26-27) closely, God says "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..."

And if that isn't weird enough, this verse is immediately followed by a verse which says: "So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Genesis is a weird book. The whole part after Adam and Eve partake of the forbidden fruit, where God is walking through the forest "looking for" Adam and calling his name, as if He doesn't know exactly where to find Adam. Was God playing mind-games, or did He experience a strange lacuna in His omniscience?

Genesis 3:8-9

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?"

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so when adam took the fruit of knowledge he was like god, able to tell truth from untruth, right from wrong. and he was evicted so as not to eat from the tree of life too. so you see, true zealots should in fact have no problem believing they can decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. (of course you have a point, most zealots have a phobia of thinking for themselves)

So why did Adam and Eve get punished for eating the apple if they did not know right from wrong before eating it?

You still haven't explained why you judge killing to be wrong without the help of the Bible.

Originally posted by Mark Adkins
I think you'd have to specify that the cruelty was gratuitous or otherwise unjustified. If somebody broke into my house and microwaved the cat, that would be evil. If I beat them to death for this, that would be just.

Actually, sentient beings aren't evil. Nobody would choose that, after all. All of the evilness comes from defective pseudo-sentien ...[text shortened]... posing as human beings. Free-will doesn't presuppose the existence of evil. That's a myth.

free-will means you are capable of doing any action from a given set at a given time. and we divide that set of actions into good and evil. so unless you are saying that there is no good and evil, then evil must exist for free will to exist. you cannot have only good and still have free will.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So why did Adam and Eve get punished for eating the apple if they did not know right from wrong before eating it?

You still haven't explained why you judge killing to be wrong without the help of the Bible.

why do you judge killing to be wrong if you are a godless, damned to hell infidel? why don't you need the bible decide what is right and what is wrong
to choose.

you keep supporting your idea that while atheists can think for themselves, believers need a holy book to form an opinion.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
free-will means you are capable of doing any action from a given set at a given time. and we divide that set of actions into good and evil. so unless you are saying that there is no good and evil, then evil must exist for free will to exist. you cannot have only good and still have free will.

You may divide all your options into good and evil, but most of us do not. Most of my decisions do not to my knowledge have directly good or evil outcomes. I still think that I can correctly call those free will decisions. Also even if we do assign good or evil to outcomes then again there would be levels of good and evil and not absolute outcomes. If you had a set of choices, some would be gooder than others and some eviler.
Obviously, by your rules, God does not have free will.