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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 04 Jun '18 16:42
    Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

    22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

    23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

    26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

    28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[i] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

    29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

    30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

    32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

    35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
  2. 04 Jun '18 16:45
    Jesus says this is how it is with us and God.

    God forgives us our sins which obviously means we are saved. But then because we fail to be forgiving to those of us on earth we can have our sins remembered. If we have to pay for our sins we are no longer saved.
  3. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    04 Jun '18 22:40 / 2 edits
    That is not a punishment of the loss of eternal salvation.
    That is a dispensational and temporary punishment.

    If it was eternal the word until would not appear.
    The word "until" indicates a time of the termination of the punishment.

    34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.


    341 This refers to the Lord's dealing with His believers at His coming back. If we do not forgive the brother who sins against us, we will be disciplined by the Lord until we forgive him from the heart, i.e., until we repay all that is owed. Then the Lord will forgive us. This is forgiveness in the kingdom. This implies that if we do not forgive a brother from our heart today, we will not be allowed to enter into the kingdom in the coming age..


    See footnote 18(34) RcV Online for Matt. 18:34.

    http://online.recoveryversion.bible/BibleChapters.asp?fcid=18&lcid=18

    And From The Collected Works of Watchman Nee - Study of Matthew

    Verse 32:"Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me." This verse can refer to this life, in which case it means that God takes a person away from the world. This verse can also refer to the coming age, in which case it refers to God's judgment in the future.

    Verse 33:"Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?" The Lord rebuked him for forgetting the mercy he had formerly received. This verse is the center, focus, and lesson of this parable.

    Verse 34:"And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." His master was not breaking his promise. Because of righteousness, he made void his former mercy. "Repay all" means to fulfill the punishment of the one thousand years.

    Verse 35:"So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." Verse 35 is the summary. Verses 21 and 22 are the introduction. Verses 23-34 are the parable. Here, in the summary, it applies the lesson to men of the present age. From this we see that this parable concerns matters of the present age. "From your hearts." So many times one forgives in his face, by his mouth, or in his conduct, but not "from the heart." The Lord stresses the heart. If a believer does not forgive others, he will be cast into prison and will not be released until he repays all that he owes. Therefore, a believer who does not forgive others should not ask to be forgiven. There should not be a believer who is so stubborn as to refuse to move his head, speak to others, or communicate with others.


    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
  4. 04 Jun '18 22:48
    Originally posted by @sonship
    That is not a punishment of the loss of eternal salvation.
    That is a dispensational and temporary punishment.

    If it was eternal the word [b]until
    would not appear.
    The word "until" indicates a time of the termination of the punishment.

    34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he shoul ...[text shortened]... eak to others, or communicate with others.


    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n[/b]
    Could he ever pay off an unpayable debt?
  5. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    04 Jun '18 23:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Could he ever pay off an unpayable debt?
    It is not a debt related to eternal redemption.
    It is a debt related to being a defeated Christian rather than an overcoming one in relation to the kingdom reward.

    Use this passage to compare - saved yet losing the reward.

    "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)


    In building upon the foundation (of Jesus Christ) the overcoming saint is saved PLUS receives a reward in the millennial kingdom.

    In building upon the same foundation (of Jesus Christ) the defeated believer is defeated by his grudge and stubborness to forgive. He is saved but suffers loss. That loss is during the thousand year millennial kingdom.

    Yet he is saved. His still being saved yet with discipline corresponds to him being punished UNTIL he paid what was owed.
  6. 04 Jun '18 23:28
    Originally posted by @sonship
    It is not a debt related to eternal redemption.
    It is a debt related to being a defeated Christian rather than an overcoming one in relation to the kingdom reward.

    Use this passage to compare - saved yet losing the reward.

    [quote] [b] "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is c ...[text shortened]... l being saved yet with discipline corresponds to him being punished UNTIL he paid what was owed.
    Jesus says the debt in the story is equal to sin.

    I suppose you are saying there is salvation without forgiveness of sin.
  7. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    04 Jun '18 23:30
    Originally posted by @sonship
    It is not a debt related to eternal redemption.
    It is a debt related to being a defeated Christian rather than an overcoming one in relation to the kingdom reward.

    Use this passage to compare - saved yet losing the reward.

    [quote] [b] "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is c ...[text shortened]... l being saved yet with discipline corresponds to him being punished UNTIL he paid what was owed.
    Leaving out the part you dont like again sonship?

    The very next verse says that there are some who deflile themselves and they will be destroyed. Not all Christians get a chance at paying for their sins. Some are destroyed becaused they defiled themselves.

    Why are you so stupid?
  8. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    05 Jun '18 00:28
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Leaving out the part you dont like again sonship?

    The very next verse says that there are some who deflile themselves and they will be destroyed. Not all Christians get a chance at paying for their sins. Some are destroyed becaused they defiled themselves.

    Why are you so stupid?
    Is this how you follow the commandments of Christ, amigo? By calling someone “stupid?”
  9. 05 Jun '18 01:33
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Is this how you follow the commandments of Christ, amigo? By calling someone “stupid?”
    Can a person who's sins are not forgiven be found righteous?
  10. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    05 Jun '18 01:46 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Jesus says the debt in the story is equal to sin.

    I suppose you are saying there is salvation without forgiveness of sin.
    There are different kinds of forgiveness. I cover only TWO below.

    1.) There kind of forgiveness the is for eternal redemption.

    2.) There is a kind of forgiveness in the age to come. That
    is the millennial age of one thousand years for those who already have forgiveness #1.

    In the following verse the second type of forgiveness is alluded to.

    "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven; either in this age or in the age to come." (Matt. 12:32)


    Focus on these words -
    " ... will not be forgiven; EITHER IN THIS AGE OR IN THE AGE TO COME."


    The implication of this saying is that there can be a FORGIVENESS in " the age to come".

    If Jesus said they will not be forgiven EITHER in this age or in THE AGE TO COME, the strong implication is that in the millennial age to come following the church age, there can be forgiveness.
  11. 05 Jun '18 01:49
    Originally posted by @sonship
    There are different kinds of forgiveness. I cover only TWO below.

    1.) There kind of forgiveness the is for eternal redemption.

    2.) There is a kind of forgiveness in the age to come. That
    is the millennial age of one thousand years.

    In the following verse the second type of forgiveness is alluded to.

    [quote] [b] "And whoever says a wor ...[text shortened]... obtain eternal life simply by rejecting Christ BUT forgiving everyone.

    Do you believe that ?
    This age is while you are alive. The next age is after death.

    Tell me, can you be found righteous if your sins are forgiven.
  12. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    05 Jun '18 01:51
    The teaching of the evil servant is about the second kind of forgiveness - the forgiveness IN THE AGE TO COME.

    It should be NORMAL that the believer be spending that time being rewarded - entering into the joy of the Lord to reign over the earth. However, the ABNORMAL situation with SOME believers is that they still have issues that they have no overcome.

    In the teaching it is forgiveness of fellow servants -keeping a grudge - stubbornly holding on to some offense from a fellow believer.

    That servant needs to experience a discipline and forgiveness pertaining to "the age to come."

    Something missing in his transformation, in his consecration, in his being conformed to the image of Christ is being dealt with in a remedial way FOLLOWING the Lord's return.

    The words therefore -

    "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers UNTIL he would repay all that was owed." (Matt. 18:34)


    This means until he learned his lesson and secured the forgiveness related to THAT "age to come" - the age of the millennial kingdom preceding eternity.

    Pertaining to ETERNAL redemption he had forgiveness.
    Pertaining to the REWARD or DISCIPLINE of the "age to come" he still needed to learn a lesson.

    The lesson: As God had forgiven him his dept he should forgive those who owed him.

    If you don't interpret in this way then you are saying that eternal redemption is obtained by forgiving. In that case the non-believer can obtain eternal life simply by rejecting Christ BUT forgiving everyone.

    Do you believe that ?
  13. 05 Jun '18 01:55
    Originally posted by @sonship
    The teaching of the evil servant is about the second kind of forgiveness - the forgiveness IN THE AGE TO COME.

    It should be NORMAL that the believer be spending that time being rewarded - entering into the joy of the Lord to reign over the earth. However, the ABNORMAL situation with SOME believers is that they still have issues that they have no overcom ...[text shortened]... obtain eternal life simply by rejecting Christ BUT forgiving everyone.

    Do you believe that ?
    Can we repay for our sins?

    Remember the debt is sin. Tell me, how do we pay for our sin debt?
  14. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    05 Jun '18 02:05
    Originally posted by @eladar
    This age is while you are alive. The next age is after death.


    Some Christians will expire before Christ's second coming and the next age.

    Some Christians will live right through that transition.

    Either way they go to "the age to come".
    Some are resurrected and transfigured.
    Some are living and transfigured.

    Regardless, they arrive at "the age to come."

    Some arrive in the age to come to be rewarded to co-reign with Christ entering into His joy.
    Some arrive who will suffer loss, lose a reward and undergo punishment of a temporary nature.

    This should be as clear as glass in the Apostle's words that some will SUFFER LOSS but themselves be saved yet so as through fire.

    "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss ..."


    The suffering of loss here is not eternal suffering of eternal loss but dispensational sufferng of a temporary loss.

    " ... he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)


    Within that expression - within that warning is room for ANY kind of discipline Christ intends to enact to those eternally saved.


    Tell me, can you be found righteous if your sins are forgiven.


    The Christian can move on from a righteous POSITION to a righteous DISPOSITION.

    The former is his eternal stand before God for eternal redemption. The latter is a matter of sanctification, transformation, and fitness to receive the REWARD of co-reigning with Christ.

    Christ will deny some Christians the REWARD.
    And Some will "suffer loss".
    They will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    At the end of this remedial dealing during the thousand years they have been perfected, learned some lessons, and secured the forgiveness which is related to "the age to come".

    If you do not interpret this way then you arrive at a concept that Christ's redemption is not necessary. To be eternally saved you just need to forgive everyone.

    The Atheist and Christ rejector then can be saved simply by being a forgiving Atheist or a forgiving Christ opposer.

    Do you believe that ?
  15. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    05 Jun '18 02:12
    Originally posted by @sonship
    [b]This age is while you are alive. The next age is after death.


    Some Christians will expire before Christ's second coming and the next age.

    Some Christians will live right through that transition.

    Either way they go to "the age to come".
    Some are resurrected and transfigured.
    Some are living and transfigured.

    Regar ...[text shortened]... aved simply by being a forgiving Atheist or a forgiving Christ opposer.

    Do you believe that ?[/b]
    And some will be destroyed.