Originally posted by knightmeister
I think the main difference here is that for me the experience points to something outside of and separate from me . Buddhism etc seems to me to be about states of mind and an interior world. Christianity is about what the living God does in the world.
The real issue is whether the experience is telling us something substantial and phenomenological a ...[text shortened]... exists he won't care if we think that -- he will just keep existing whether we like it or not.
Buddhism etc seems to me to be about states of mind and an interior world.
This is an error, though a fairly common one I think. That is why, when I talk about mental representations and the “I-thought-complex” and such, and observing how all your thoughts arise in the mind, I also talk about just-aware mind and
tathata.
Questioning the “I” can be a good starting point, because we carry that around with us wherever we go—like our head. One can work from the inside-out or the outside-in. I worked from the inside-out, so that’s the direction I tend to talk about it.
Without thinking, who are you? Without thinking, what is the world?
We could say God is a conceptualisation based on our experiences but if he actual exists he won't care if we think that -- he will just keep existing whether we like it or not.
Yes; and if he doesn’t, he won’t. Dualism or non-dualism: that is the philosophical/religious divide, no doubt.
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If God is substantial, as you say, then what is the difference between that substance and your conceptualizations about it? If you don’t think “God,” does God disappear? If you don’t name it, does it disappear?
Suppose I grow up thinking that certain flower is a
gundfig. That is the name that my family gave it. When anyone in my family talks about a
gundfig, I form a mental notion or image of that flower in my head from memory. If someone points to one and asks what it is, I say “That’s a
gundfig.” Later, I find out that everyone else (except my immediate family) calls that flower “rose.” Is the thing any different? Does it smell any different?
Maybe people have a wide variety of notions about gundfig/roses: what they are useful for, how they should be planted, which ones smell the best, what they ought to be called. Maybe if I say “rose” now, your mental representation is of a red rose, whilst I am actually thinking of a white one. Is the rose any different for all that?
Okay, that’s a very limited analogy, and I’m stretching it quite a bit.
“God” is a word, like
gundfig. Associated with that word are all sorts of images, ideas, feelings in your mind. When you say “God,” you don’t point with your finger to some visible external referent, like a tree. You likely do not even make a broad sweeping gesture to include everything in the world, including yourself which is not separate from all of it. “God” is a conceptual complex in your head—whether or not
God actually exists. Can you know
God without any of that—images, notions, concepts, theology—without even the word “God”?
So:
Without thinking at all, what is God?
(Or are you only attached to everything that you think about God? That’s not an accusation, it’s a tease.)
The day you can answer that question—without throwing out another “thought about”—you will have Zen. It’s simple really (which is not to say easy); don’t complicate it. I’ve already given you a ton of background “hints”.
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BTW, based on something you once said to me, I have quit “Buddhasizing” Jesus; so that’s not what this is about. 🙂