1. Unknown Territories
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    08 Jan '11 04:29
    Originally posted by Agerg
    To summarise my point: Your insistence that your god imparts any real meaning to existence seems true[hidden]to you[/hidden]only since you have faith it's true.
    Any claims just as outlandish on my part that would seek to undermine the meaningfulness of your existence would be dismissed so easily by yourself as I and other atheists dismiss yours.
    Well, that's just more of your subjective thinking infecting the well. Of course you would suggest that whatever gets you through the night is on equal par with whatever gets me through the night: your thinking doesn't allow for objective truth.

    If all are true, then none are true.

    But, thankfully, this is not the case, and certain aspects can be reasonably deduced, assuming specific givens. If God did not exist and this life was all we had, desperation would be the order of the day. Indeed, as societies become dull in their thinking toward God, we see the folks within become increasingly more desperate in their actions. The only meaning to be found is to serve one's self, all others be damned. There is no honor, so need to act honorably.

    In fact, if survival of the fittest is the template for our very existence, to not act in accord with that impetus is to act unnaturally, against the grain.
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    08 Jan '11 04:572 edits
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Well, that's just more of your subjective thinking infecting the well. Of course you would suggest that whatever gets you through the night is on equal par with whatever gets me through the night: your thinking doesn't allow for objective truth.

    If all are true, then none are true.

    But, thankfully, this is not the case, and certain aspects can be re y existence, to not act in accord with that impetus is to act unnaturally, against the grain.
    Subjective thinking infecting the well!? I see...perhaps, in just the same way you assert (or at least imply) that it is an objective fact your god is the source of any tangible meaning in our lives; I should play the same game and assert, to the contrary, it is an objective fact that meaningfulness of an atheist's existence is derived solely from the meaning they make for themselves.
    Now we're both being objective! 😕

    As regards your last paragraph; you may have noticed that it is one particular "given", that only your god imparts meaning to our lives, I am not so quick to just assume - indeed I am quite sure it is false; and your entire argument seems to stem from this.
    Secondly, what evidence have you that
    If God did not exist and this life was all we had, desperation would be the order of the day. Indeed, as societies become dull in their thinking toward God, we see the folks within become increasingly more desperate in their actions. The only meaning to be found is to serve one's self, all others be damned. There is no honor, so need to act honorably.
    ?
  3. Unknown Territories
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    08 Jan '11 05:07
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Subjective thinking poisoning the well!? I see...perhaps, in just the same way you assert (or at least imply) that it is an objective fact your god is the source of any tangible meaning in our lives; I should play the same game and assert, to the contrary, it is an objective fact that meaningfulness of an atheist's existence is derived solely from the meaning ...[text shortened]... erve one's self, all others be damned. There is no honor, so need to act honorably.[/i]
    ?
    in just the same way you assert (or at least imply) that it is an objective fact your god is the source of any tangible meaning in our lives; I should play the same game and assert, to the contrary, it is an objective fact that meaningfulness of an atheist's existence is derived solely from the meaning they make for themselves.
    You can see the contradiction without any prodding from me, I assume. Invented meaning is an illusion, standing only as firm as the one imposing it. If each antitheist is said to stand on his own meaning from his own thinking, then they are all equal: there can be no evil in a world full of equals.

    Secondly, what evidence have you that...
    The morning paper, the evening news. All of the philosophers who have asserted that God does not exist come to the same dead end. Death is the only release... and even that is contradiction!
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    09 Jan '11 19:09
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]in just the same way you assert (or at least imply) that it is an objective fact your god is the source of any tangible meaning in our lives; I should play the same game and assert, to the contrary, it is an objective fact that meaningfulness of an atheist's existence is derived solely from the meaning they make for themselves.
    You can see the cont ...[text shortened]... exist come to the same dead end. Death is the only release... and even that is contradiction![/b]
    You can see the contradiction without any prodding from me, I assume. Invented meaning is an illusion, standing only as firm as the one imposing it.
    The contradiction was sort of the point; in that if we both just just assert "objective" facts with blithe abandon then we get into all sorts of logical trouble. What's more, your "objectivity" is no more substantiated here than the so called objectivity I casually professed.
    As I have saidReveal Hidden Content
    (if not here then in ephinenehas\'s thread)
    the meaning you would try to ground upon your god is no less "illusionary" than the meaning I "invent". In your scenario you just exist forever and ever and ever and ever ... and ever and ...... for what!? to glorify the ego of your supposed god? As in the other "toy example" a few posts prior; any such meaning can be rendered moot by the supposition there exists another god who dominates yours. The point of that was to show you can't just arbitrarily assign meaning to life by appealing to some god.

    If each antitheist is said to stand on his own meaning from his own thinking, then they are all equal: there can be no evil in a world full of equals
    I don't see how this follows, why should all be equal? Adopting a colloquial definition of evil (not centred on your god), why should there be an absence of evil (or zero contemptible people/acts) in the world if I tell myself the meaning of my life is to live it well, and to act for the benefit of others whilst some other person decides that the meaning of his life is make others miserable?

    The morning paper, the evening news. All of the philosophers who have asserted that God does not exist come to the same dead end. Death is the only release... and even that is contradiction
    I don't see the contradiction...perhaps it's because we have differing opinions on the virtue of an eternal existence - I find such notions rather unsettling.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jan '11 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]in just the same way you assert (or at least imply) that it is an objective fact your god is the source of any tangible meaning in our lives; I should play the same game and assert, to the contrary, it is an objective fact that meaningfulness of an atheist's existence is derived solely from the meaning they make for themselves.
    You can see the cont ...[text shortened]... exist come to the same dead end. Death is the only release... and even that is contradiction![/b]
    You seem to bandy about the terms anitheist, antitheist, I don't think I actually saw you spell it atheist. Are you implying antitheists are like your antichrist? You perhaps see antitheists as actively opposing your god? If that were the case, what is the difference between this purported anti-theist and Muslims in Darfur forcing natives to convert to islam or be killed. If they do that to christians, doesn't that make them anti-theists also?
  6. Unknown Territories
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    10 Jan '11 04:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You seem to bandy about the terms anitheist, antitheist, I don't think I actually saw you spell it atheist. Are you implying antitheists are like your antichrist? You perhaps see antitheists as actively opposing your god? If that were the case, what is the difference between this purported anti-theist and Muslims in Darfur forcing natives to convert to islam or be killed. If they do that to christians, doesn't that make them anti-theists also?
    Are you implying antitheists are like your antichrist?
    Yes, although I really don't have an anti-Christ.

    You perhaps see antitheists as actively opposing your god?
    Yes.

    If that were the case, what is the difference between this purported anti-theist and Muslims in Darfur forcing natives to convert to islam or be killed. If they do that to christians, doesn't that make them anti-theists also?
    Muslims, while worshiping something other than the Living Go, nonetheless are not caught in the same logical contradiction as an antitheist.

    Distinction with a difference.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    10 Jan '11 05:23
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]Are you implying antitheists are like your antichrist?
    Yes, although I really don't have an anti-Christ.

    You perhaps see antitheists as actively opposing your god?
    Yes.

    If that were the case, what is the difference between this purported anti-theist and Muslims in Darfur forcing natives to convert to islam or be killed. If they do ...[text shortened]... t caught in the same logical contradiction as an antitheist.

    Distinction with a difference.
    So you equate atheism with antitheism?
  8. Unknown Territories
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    10 Jan '11 12:42
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So you equate atheism with antitheism?
    Yes. I consider the term 'atheist' as having lost it's punch; a person subscribing to such a view doesn't merely live as though God doesn't exist: he sets himself up against Him.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    10 Jan '11 14:11
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Yes. I consider the term 'atheist' as having lost it's punch; a person subscribing to such a view doesn't merely live as though God doesn't exist: he sets himself up against Him.
    So you are ok with characterizing all atheists with that broad brush, not even recognizing the levels within atheism. Not all atheists think the same thing.

    For instance, here is one link about this subject:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/bc957/what_are_the_levels_of_atheism/

    You may be turned off by this because it is from your arch enemy Dawkins but if you can get past that, the definitions therein illustrate the levels of atheism.
  10. Unknown Territories
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    10 Jan '11 14:39
    Originally posted by Agerg
    You can see the contradiction without any prodding from me, I assume. Invented meaning is an illusion, standing only as firm as the one imposing it.
    The contradiction was sort of the point; in that if we both just just assert "objective" facts with blithe abandon then we get into all sorts of logical trouble. What's more, your "objectivity" is no more sub ...[text shortened]... on the virtue of an eternal existence - I find such notions rather unsettling.[/b]
    What's more, your "objectivity" is no more substantiated here than the so called objectivity I casually professed.
    I guess the difference comes down to the agent upon whom the standard rests. As is admitted by man, he holds himself in suspicion. As claimed by God, He is perfect and unchangeable. Test Him and you won't find Him wanting. Of course, if the only tests one puts Him to are of a petty, childish kind, you'll not get far. He won't be trifled with. But for the person who seeks, He reveals Himself.

    The point of that was to show you can't just arbitrarily assign meaning to life by appealing to some god.
    For one, He's not simply "some god," but rather, the God. And we don't appeal to Him, but rather, He appeals to us. And while there are aspect of this life which are illuminated and enriched beyond what can be experienced otherwise, the point of His existence as it relates to meaningfulness v. meaninglessness is in the area of logical conclusions. If God did not exist--- if this was all nothing more than a cosmic accident without purpose or direction--- then any meaning we attempt to impart on anything is entirely subjective and, ultimately, useless and meaningless. It matters not whether we contribute to society or bleed it dry: tomorrow we die.

    ...if I tell myself the meaning of my life is to live it well, and to act for the benefit of others whilst some other person decides that the meaning of his life is make others miserable?
    These two bookends of societal perspectives are in opposition, each to the other. None can say the former is preferred while the latter is reprehensible. On what authority can any judgment be tendered?

    I don't see the contradiction...perhaps it's because we have differing opinions on the virtue of an eternal existence - I find such notions rather unsettling.
    While the eternal state is one to consider, it's not the salient issue. The issue to resolve is the antitheist's inability to establish a cohesive and consistent perspective which remains in agreement with his stated 'disbeliefs.'
  11. Unknown Territories
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    10 Jan '11 14:40
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So you are ok with characterizing all atheists with that broad brush, not even recognizing the levels within atheism. Not all atheists think the same thing.

    For instance, here is one link about this subject:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/bc957/what_are_the_levels_of_atheism/

    You may be turned off by this because it is from your arch en ...[text shortened]... Dawkins but if you can get past that, the definitions therein illustrate the levels of atheism.
    I get the nuances that have been articulated, but--- at the end of the day--- anyone attempting to live without God cannot help but set something resembling Him in His place.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    10 Jan '11 16:18
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    I get the nuances that have been articulated, but--- at the end of the day--- anyone attempting to live without God cannot help but set something resembling Him in His place.
    Yes, that other thing would be the magnificence of the universe, the jewel of a planet we live on and the drive to learn without needing a supernatural being to goad us on. The universe itself is as near to supernatural as I ever need to contemplate.
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