02 Jan 11
5 edits
It is claimed by certain theists that if it is true there are no gods then it must also be true that life is meaningless.
My contention here is that the theists who do this are essentially redefining 'meaningless' so to cast atheism or non-belief in gods in a negative light.
Indeed no definitions of meaningful, or meaningless I have come across make any reference to divine entities.
Why should we accept the proposition that an eternal existence, lived subservient to some magic being in some sort of heaven is any more meaningful than a finite existence lived, as a consequence of this, without any waste in opportunity; an existence that benefits ones self and other humans/creatures whilst alive, and provides a legacy for future generations when dead (and in the case of certain scientists/mathematicians/writers etc... all humanity)?
To those who would counter "all life must end" in the atheistic view, first it is interesting to note you're imposing that our universe is not destined for a big crunch
where perhaps life may start again in another universe cycle
, or that our universe is not one of many,i.e. a multiverse
or any other scenario (sans gods) where life in any dimension must terminate forever. How do you justify these?
Secondly, and more importantly, what non-trivial meaning is inherent in an eternal life for the sake of gratifying the ego of some magic deity??? Why should atheists agree that your answer is true???😕
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by Agergbecause the only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality, in other words, without it, we are essentially the same, we build nests, we have children, we gather nuts for winter, we grow old and we die.
It is claimed by certain theists that if it is true there are no gods then it must also be true that life is meaningless.
My contention here is that the theists who do this are essentially redefining 'meaningless' so to cast atheism or non-belief in gods in a negative light.
Indeed no definitions of meaningful, or meaningless I have come across make any refe ...[text shortened]... ying the ego of some magic deity??? Why should atheists agree that your answer is true???😕
I must point out Agers that i am keen to distance myself from any type of we are meaningful and you're existence is meaningless unless you worship a deity, type of approach, I dont like it, it reeks to the high heavens of condescension.
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergFirst of all, you are not qualified to ask questions like this, because you are at present under the influence of the madness disease, so how could you possibly appreciate an answer, if at present you believe dishonestly that life is a random accident.
It is claimed by certain theists that if it is true there are no gods then it must also be true that life is meaningless.
My contention here is that the theists who do this are essentially redefining 'meaningless' so to cast atheism or non-belief in gods in a negative light.
Indeed no definitions of meaningful, or meaningless I have come across make any refe ...[text shortened]... ying the ego of some magic deity??? Why should atheists agree that your answer is true???😕
We are not even talking about God, but how life comes to be.
First there was life, then came everything else.......but you have it back the front thinking first there was matter, and then there was life.(which is false)
So with your faulty beliefs you are not qualified to ask these types of questions, because you are bewildered by the madness disease and cannot see clearly.
Fix that first....then ask your question, because talking about meaning while you dont even accept the basics, is futile.
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality? I don't agree at all. There is, of course, spirituality. But there is also imagination, intellect, thirst for knowledge, sense of history, romantic love, creativity, political belief and ambition, contemplativeness, aspirations, specualtions, personal growth and so on and so on. The list could stretch on for pages and pages. The fact that you declare confidently that spirituality is "the only thing which separates us" does not disguise the fact that there are hundreds of things - or perhaps even countless things - besides our spirituality, that set us apart from animals.
because the only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality, in other words, without it, we are essentially the same, we build nests, we have children, we gather nuts for winter, we grow old and we die.
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by John W BoothRobbie means that only humans can question and seek meaning....but a squirrel cant.........do you not see that?
The only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality? I don't agree at all. There is, of course, spirituality. But there is also imagination, intellect, thirst for knowledge, sense of history, romantic love, creativity, political belief and ambition, contemplativeness, aspirations, specualtions, personal growth and so on and ...[text shortened]... or perhaps even countless things - besides our spirituality, that set us apart from animals.
And that is the one thing that separates us from the animals, and if a human doesn't question his existence and seek God, his human birth is wasted, and he is on the same level as an animal.
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03 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergWhy does it matter to you if life is meaningful or not?
It is claimed by certain theists that if it is true there are no gods then it must also be true that life is meaningless.
My contention here is that the theists who do this are essentially redefining 'meaningless' so to cast atheism or non-belief in gods in a negative light.
Indeed no definitions of meaningful, or meaningless I have come across make any refe ...[text shortened]... ying the ego of some magic deity??? Why should atheists agree that your answer is true???😕
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergWhat you miss is truly the most important piece. You've subtracted an impotent god from the scenario, one with whom you are little impressed and then consider the situation sans this unimpressive god. It's rather easy to make meaning where none exists; one could say it's mandatory given the human condition. The fact that the antitheist declares meaning in situations where none exists attests to this: man needs meaning in life, else he is without hope. The overwhelming majority of suicides occur as a result of a soul becoming convinced of the hopelessness of their situation.
It is claimed by certain theists that if it is true there are no gods then it must also be true that life is meaningless.
My contention here is that the theists who do this are essentially redefining 'meaningless' so to cast atheism or non-belief in gods in a negative light.
Indeed no definitions of meaningful, or meaningless I have come across make any refe ...[text shortened]... ying the ego of some magic deity??? Why should atheists agree that your answer is true???😕
The god you are imagining doesn't exist, doesn't.
However, the God who imparts meaning to life does so on the basis of His character. The living God is glorious beyond description... and yet, we try. His goodness is the source of all happiness; His overflowing love the format for all warmth even remotely related. When this God leaves the room, life exits as well.
03 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by John W Boothall these things that you mention are under the realm of spirituality, for i do not harbour for one moment the belief, and i dont think you do either that it pertains simply to belief in the supernatural. You have based your evaluation on an assumption. Of course spirituality has to do with the imagination, our personal growth, thinking on our past mistakes, reflecting upon them and trying to find solutions, our desires and aspirations, its all of these things.
The only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality? I don't agree at all. There is, of course, spirituality. But there is also imagination, intellect, thirst for knowledge, sense of history, romantic love, creativity, political belief and ambition, contemplativeness, aspirations, specualtions, personal growth and so on and or perhaps even countless things - besides our spirituality, that set us apart from animals.
03 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by vishvahetuYes, I am an atheist ergo I suffer from the madness disease! If
First of all, you are not qualified to ask questions like this, because you are at present under the influence of the madness disease, so how could you possibly appreciate an answer, if at present you believe dishonestly that life is a random accident.
We are not even talking about God, but how life comes to be.
First there was life, then came every ...[text shortened]... k your question, because talking about meaning while you dont even accept the basics, is futile.
only I could suspend my scepticism for one moment and accept
unquestioningly the proposition our universe is trillions of years old!
Maybe I should also open my mind to the truth in tea leaf readings,
or perhaps a bit of astrology. That aside however; given that I can't
really change my view until it's shown, with a valid argument, how
over-stretched is my hold on reality without gods, I must ask that you
now make a positive contribution to this thread, or just clear off!
🙂
03 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KThe contempt implied by your response not completely escaping my notice, why shouldn't it?
Why does it matter to you if life is meaningful or not?
Why would a person who has expressed non-belief in "God" concern himself with discussions about God???
Perhaps I just enjoy the discussion, perhaps there is the opportunity to revise my views with respect to what is feasible and what isn't.
03 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes indeed, spirituality has got something to do with all the things I mentioned. But, at the same time, all the things I mentioned do not necessarily have something to do with spirituality. Quite clearly, as demonstrated by the rich and meaningful lives lived by countless non-believers and non-religionists all across the world, the existence and enjoyment of things like imagination, intellect, thirst for knowledge, sense of history, romantic love, creativity, political belief and ambition, contemplativeness, aspirations, specualtions, personal growth [and so on], are not dependent on a belief in the supernatural.
Of course spirituality has to do with the imagination, our personal growth, thinking on our past mistakes, reflecting upon them and trying to find solutions, our desires and aspirations, its all of these things.
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by vishvahetuWhat robbie meant - what he specifically said - was: "The only thing which separates us from squiggly the red squirrel is spirituality". I disgree with him about it being "the only thing". Of course humans can question and seek meaning, and some - like you - find what you believe to be 'answers' in the realm of spirituality and the supernatural. Quite clearly, not all humans do this, and they instead find 'meaning' [in so much as they feel the need to so self-consciously] in things not of a spiritual or supernatural nature, or not in terms of theology, theism, or codified or organized religion.
Robbie means that only humans can question and seek meaning....but a squirrel cant.........do you not see that?
03 Jan 11
Originally posted by John W BoothYes of course they are not. We think of music in terms of spirituality, its certainly superfluous to our survival, as is appreciation of art, literature, history etc. Spirituality has to do with the flow of consciousness, this was my meaning and intent.
Yes indeed, spirituality has got something to do with all the things I mentioned. But, at the same time, all the things I mentioned do not necessarily have something to do with spirituality. Quite clearly, as demonstrated by the rich and meaningful lives lived by countless non-believers and non-religionists all across the world, the existence and enjoy ...[text shortened]... s, specualtions, personal growth [and so on], are not dependent on a belief in the supernatural.
03 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHBut in the same way you charge me, an "anti-theist", with transplanting meaning into a situation which lacks it; I can level the same charge back at you. Indeed, you somehow cheapen the life we have here on earth by insisting it is all for nought without some ever present, all powerful non-physical deity, defined (by theists) to be morally transcendent and all loving, presiding over its operation. My question is: what compels me to agree with you here? or otherwise why should I not see this as an unsubstantiated assertion?
What you miss is truly the most important piece. You've subtracted an impotent god from the scenario, one with whom you are little impressed and then consider the situation sans this unimpressive god. It's rather easy to make meaning where none exists; one could say it's mandatory given the human condition. The fact that the antitheist declares meaning t for all warmth even remotely related. When this God leaves the room, life exits as well.
It is important that theists explain this on our terms if they are prepared to make the allegation our lives are meaningless! Otherwise, why should we believe them???
I don't disagree with you that without hope, without reason to continue existing, one might be motivated to just end it all and commit suicide; but this isn't just a condition experienced by atheists alone. Moreover I could argue that introducing a god might introduce only a false (and subjective) hope.
Speaking for myself, there are many occasions I am happy (good music, good friends, success in my hobbies and studies, appreciation of 'beauty', etc...) and since I don't believe in your god I cannot be expected to believe your claim that all happiness is derived from your God's "Goodness".