Melchizedec

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes Jaywill, Christ does become a life giving spirit, after his ascension and resurrection to heaven, he is clearly once again, a life giving spiritual being, thus the reference that you give pertain to the Christ himself, not the Holy Spirit, as I understand it!

=====================================
yes Jaywill, Christ does become a life giving spirit, after his ascension and resurrection to heaven, he is clearly once again, a life giving spiritual being, thus the reference that you give pertain to the Christ himself, not the Holy Spirit, as I understand it!
=====================================

I would like to take my time to talk about this with you. So I will try not to load one post with too many concepts.

I would like to draw your attention to John 20:22 after Christ's resurrection, yet before His public ascension. The disciples are in a locked room. Jesus comes appears within the room in spite of the locked door. And He breaths into the disciples the Holy Spirit.

"Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you, as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." (v.21)

And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (v.22)

Notice that this breathing into the disciples was for them to "[R]cieve the Holy Spirit". This is before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them for power as a rushing mighty wind.

This receiving of the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 is for life. That if for Christ Himself as the life of God being imparted into them. It was here that the disciples were regenerated and born of the Spirit.

There is no question that this is the life giving Spirit to regenerate the disciples inwardly with a new divine life. This life was Christ Himself, breathed into them. This is the life giving Spirit that the Apostle Paul writes the Last Adam became.

He stood before them in His resurrected flesh and He breathed into them Himself in His pneumatic form. He breathed Himself into the disciples as a life giving Spirit. What He had become He imparted into them.

I will continue latter.

The Holy Spirit breathed into the disciples in John 20 was the Spirit expected in John 7:39 - "He who believes into Me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit which they who believed into Him were about to receive ..."

The was also the Spirit promised in John 14:16-17,26; 15:26 and 16:7-8, 13. This was the coming to them of the Another Comforter. The first Comforter was a living Person. The Another Comforter is also a living Person and not just a force. In fact the Another Comforter is really the first Comforter coming in His pneumatic form to indwell them. He was with them physically as the first Comforter. In resurrection He changes His form to "a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) to be Another Comforter to dwell within them.

It is expedient that Jesus would go away to the cross and return in resurrection to be the indwelling Another Comforter Who is also the Spirit of reality (See John 14:15-18).

The scene of Jesus breathing into the disciples the promised Holy Spirit (John 20:22) highlights that this Spirit is out of Jesus and IS Jesus Himself. God as a Man is able to do this miraculous thing - to stand before them and breath Himself into the disciples. The utter identification of the Holy Spirit as Jesus, as His very breath, reveals the oneness between the Second of the Triune God and the Third of the Triune God.

In fact Jesus speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit as His very own coming. Right here:

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comfoter, that He may be with you forever, [Even] the Spirit of reality, whom, the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know [Him]; [but] you know Him, becaue He abides with you and shall be in you.

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:16-18)

The "He" Who is to abide in the disciples turns suddenly to the "I" Who is coming to the disciples -"He abides with you and shall be in you; I am coming to you."

The Lord Jesus's words - "I AM COMING TO YOU" prove that He is the Holy Spirit and that that Spirit is not simply a force but the Person of Christ in His spiritual form.

Right after Jesus says "I AM COMING TO YOU" He says that His coming as the resurrected Christ is that they may have divine life - "I AM COMING TO YOU, ... BECAUSE I LIVE YOU ALSO SHALL LIVE."


We must all grasp that to LIVE is to be with Christ here. To have life does not mean here to simply have the natural human life with which we all were born. It is not to have BIOS or to have PSYCHE. It is to have ZOE - the divine life and Person of God Himself as embodied in Jesus Christ and transmitted through the Spirit.

In the NT to have life is to have a Person. To have life is to know Jesus Christ personally living within your being.

To have eternal life is to have Jesus living and growing and spreading within you until your personality and indeed your body are comformed into His image. You become mingled and united with Jesus Christ.

there are a couple of things that i would like you to think about Jaywill my friend, which cast real doubt in my mind that the Holy spirit is a person.

firstly the historical aspect, for it was not until the fourth century that it became official church doctrine, the early church fathers did not teach it as such, Justin Martyr and Hippolytus ascribing no personality to it. this leads me to conclude that it may be part of the foretold apostasy

secondly, the scripture themselves seem to bear this out, for God has a name, Jehovah, the messiah and the Christ have a name, Jesus Christ, but there is no name ascribed to holy spirit

thirdly, personification does not necessarily mean personality, for many inanimate things in the scriptures are personified, but have no personality, wisdom is personified, as is sin, as is death etc etc

fourthly, the original Greek language in many instances appears without the definite article, making the holy spirit indistinguishable from other spirits, i.e God.

fifth, it is used in many impersonal ways along with things like water, and fire, wine, wisdom and faith

sixth, many of the biblical writers saw in vision God the father and Christ the son, but there is never any mention of a third person, the holy spirit, examples of which are Daniel, Stephen and John.

seventh, John stated that Christ would baptize with 'holy spirit and fire'. it is simply not possible to baptize a person into another person, you can be submerged in water, baptized in fire by destruction, but not into another person. this this clearly shows the impersonal nature of the Holy spirit.

eighth, Christ himself referred to it in an impersonal way, “The spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.” - john 14:17

nine, the Bible describes the operation of the spirit as a force.

But Peter stood up with the eleven and raised his voice and made this utterance to them: “Men of Judea and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give ear to my sayings.  These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 'And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

thus it simply not possible for 'some' of a person to be given here and some there.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there are a couple of things that i would like you to think about Jaywill my friend, which cast real doubt in my mind that the Holy spirit is a person.

firstly the historical aspect, for it was not until the fourth century that it became official church doctrine, the early church fathers did not teach it as such, Justin Martyr and Hippolytus asc esy.

thus it simply not possible for 'some' of a person to be given here and some there.

===================================
firstly the historical aspect, for it was not until the fourth century that it became official church doctrine, the early church fathers did not teach it as such, Justin Martyr and Hippolytus ascribing no personality to it. this leads me to conclude that it may be part of the foretold apostasy
==========================================

In this regard I think you should pay more attention to what the Bible says. It is good to know something about creeds and writings of the church fathers. However, I think you should regard these matters as secondary to what the word of God says.

I don't mind discussing some history of the development of doctrine with you according to my limited knowledge. But I primarily appeal here to the Bible.

Having said that, Hermas (A.D. 40 -150?) wrote in his Shepherd of Hermas "I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God." That was well before the fourth century.

But my primary witness to you is that of the Scripture itself.


==================================
secondly, the scripture themselves seem to bear this out, for God has a name, Jehovah, the messiah and the Christ have a name, Jesus Christ, but there is no name ascribed to holy spirit
=======================================

I don't think this is important. If "the Lord is the Spirit" then the name of the Spirit is "the Lord". And "the Lord" is Jesus.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit is God reaching us to enter into us and mingle with our personality. It is as the Third of the Triune God that God is dispensed into man to blend with man. So the identity of the Holy Spirit is really "Christ in you" to the receiver of the Spirit.

"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24)

The Holy Spirit is the livable God; the God imparted; the God dispensed into man to be lived by man and expressed in man.

We Christians should not be like the Moslem who only has God outside and objective, far away, up there, out there. The Christ as "a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) is the God processed into a form to enter into our innermost being, blend with us and be our life.

It is through the transforming work of this indwelling Person - the Holy Spirit, that the Bride of Christ can be prepared to match Him and marry Him. Therefore the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, and His Bride, the church, are at one time discribed as "the Spirit and the Bride"

The Bride is usually thought of as the counterpart of the Bridegroom. But to emphasize that the Bridegroom is in the form of the Holy Spirit, the book of Revelation speaks of "the Spirit and the Bride"

"And the Spirit and the Bride say Come!" (Rev. 22:17)

Spirit and the people of Christ are mingled as one. Thus to "marry" Him is to be filled with and saturated with Him. This He can do because of the Third Person of the Triune God is the Second in the form of "a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45) .

The command of the Lord Jesus is not "Figure out the Holy Spirit" but it is "RECEIVE the Holy Spirit". We should therefore pay attention more to the receiving of this wonderful Person. Though we may have trouble understanding the mystery of it all, we should open our hearts to receive the Holy Spirit.


=======================================
thirdly, personification does not necessarily mean personality, for many inanimate things in the scriptures are personified, but have no personality, wisdom is personified, as is sin, as is death etc etc
============================================

The point is understood. However, too many passages indicate that to deal with the Holy Spirit is to deal with God Himself and with Jesus Himself.

" And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption " (Eph. 4:30) speaks of the emotion of the Holy Spirit. How can one "grieve" a mere force?

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; for these two are opposed each other ..." (Gal 5:17a)

The flesh here is the totality of the fallen person and the Spirit is the life giving Spirit whom the last Adam became. The lust would indicate the strong desire of the Holy Spirit. So He is not simply a force.

"The Spirit, whom He has caused to dwell in us, longs to envy ..." (James 4:5)

The Holy Spirit longs to envy here. This shows emotion. The Spirit is a Person as any person would be able to "long to envy."

He is "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2)[/b] and is alternatively used to indicate God and Christ (Rom. 8:9-11).

It is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the Christians knows that she has internalized Jesus Christ and God Himself (1 John 3:24; 4:13)

For Paul to say "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim.4:22) is only possible because the "the Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit" (Rom. 8:16)

For the Person of the Holy Spirit to come into man is for the Father and the Son as the Divine "We" to come to indwell man -

" ... and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."

Without the indwelling Holy Spirit I doubt that God is real to anyone. Like the Moslem he may only know about a God objectively and far away. That is all true that God is "out there". But His economy is to be the indwelling and imparted God, living in man.

The Holy Spirit is also the one speaking not on His own behalf but on the behalf of the One Whom sent Him. In this regard His subjection is identical with the subjection of the Son to the Father:

"He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you ..." (John 16:13)

All indications lead to this truth - that the Lord in His receivable form, is the Holy Spirit. We should not linger in Old Testament concepts to deny this revelation.

Those who resist this revelation often do by trying to linger in the Old Testament economy.

==========================
fourthly, the original Greek language in many instances appears without the definite article, making the holy spirit indistinguishable from other spirits, i.e God.
========================

If you long pursue this idea you might end up with too many eternal Spirits. It would be ironic to complain about trinitarian thought if you arrive at two or more eternal divine Spirits.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) must mean that the one Lord is identical with the Holy Spirit. What more do we need to realize that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit?

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45). This must be the same life giving Spirit as the Spirit that gives life, no?

"It is the Spirit who gives life ..." (John 6:63)

" ... for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor. 3:6)

These three passages, John 6:63; 2 Cor. 3:6; 1 Cor. 15:45) all must refer to the eternal Spirit of God. Before the incarnation, life, and death of the man Jesus, this Spirit only had divinity. After the resurrection the God MAN, Jesus of Nazareth, became ALSO the ingredient and constitution of this eternal Spirit. Therefore the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.

The eternal Spirit which is God and is of God now contains the incarnated, crucified and resurrected Godman Jesus. Can't you see that this is all a kind of process for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to enter into man, to be dispensed into man?

==============================
fifth, it is used in many impersonal ways along with things like water, and fire, wine, wisdom and faith
=====================================

This shows the all-inclusivity of the Spirit. He is wonderful and flexible and capable of doing wonderful things within man. To discribe such a divine and capable Person inspired utterance must sometime compare Him to wind, water, fire, etc.

God is discribed in such terms also. We do not because of this say that God is only a force and not a person.

Does "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29) cause you to argue that God is therefore only impersonal ?

====================================
sixth, many of the biblical writers saw in vision God the father and Christ the son, but there is never any mention of a third person, the holy spirit, examples of which are Daniel, Stephen and John.
=====================================

Not true. John the Baptist the saw a vision of the Holy Spirit as a dove in the baptism of Jesus. And John the apostle saw that the seven eyes of the Lamb were the seven Spirits of God (the Holy Spirit) in Revelation 5.

The eyes of a person are hard to separate from the Person. For the book of Revelation to say that the eyes of the Lamb are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 5:6) indicates the utter identification of the Holy Spirit with the Redeemer. And we should not be surprised because "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

We can talk about "seven Spirits" in another discussion. But the seven Spirits are ranked with the Father and the Son - (Rev. 1:4,5). But I would ask you to consider:

In Revelation 4:5 the seven Spirits of God are seven lamps of fire before the Creator on the throne. But in Revelation 5:6 they become the seven eyes of the Lamb. We cannot separate the eyes of Christ from the Person of Christ. With His eyes He infuses us with His thought, intention, will, love, and judgment. Through the eyes a person communicates inner feelings to another.

The Spirit as the eyes of Jesus surely cause us to realize that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). The eternal Spirit of the Creator in chapter 4 picks up the humanity of the incarnated Redeemer to become His very eyes in chapter 5.

The last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit. So the Triune God has gone through incarnation, life, death, resurrection to include this Person and His attainments as the all inclusive ingredients of the the life giving Spirit to impart God into His saved people.

We do not need to "see" the Holy Spirit as much as we need to receive the Holy Spirit as the life giving Spirit that we may live in union with Christ. What God wants to be seen of the Holy Spirit is really the Spirit filling the person and being manifested in the transformed personality of the saved.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that God intends to accomplish. That is why Christ became a life giving Spirit. It was not so that outside of you man may "see" the Holy Spirit in a purely outward and objective way. It is to see God dispensed into man to be his life, that God intends the "seeing" of the Holy Spirit to be.

I will end this long post here and reserve further comment for latter.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there are a couple of things that i would like you to think about Jaywill my friend, which cast real doubt in my mind that the Holy spirit is a person.

firstly the historical aspect, for it was not until the fourth century that it became official church doctrine, the early church fathers did not teach it as such, Justin Martyr and Hippolytus asc esy.

thus it simply not possible for 'some' of a person to be given here and some there.

====================================
eighth, Christ himself referred to it in an impersonal way, “The spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.” - john 14:17
======================================

This is a little more technical as I am no fluent reader of NT Greek. But I have tools and Lexicons to double check.

The Greek- English Intelinear version I am using to check you on this has a note at the bottom on John 14:17 which reads:

"The gender of these pronouns agrees, of course, with the antecedent pneuma (neuter); and this has been kept though the personal Spirit of God is meant. ELSEWHERE, MASCULINE PRONOUNS ARE IN FACT USED." (my emphasis)

In other words, you have some ground to supply the word "it" in a few places in verse 17 perhaps. However the masculine pronoun used elsewhere for the Holy Spirit is in the Greek and is not supplied in a paraphrasing way.

So your point on verse 17 us admitted, technically. But it is not strong enough to be used to deny that "He" or "Him" is not in reference to the Holy Spirit. For example:

Check your Greek in John 16:8 - "I will send him to you" But in the same passage the literal English translation does not use neutar but we have -"because with you he remains and in you will be"


Also I am pretty sure the personalization is definite in:


John 16:12 - "will he speak" - "he will guide you" - "when comes that one" - "That one me will glorify" - "he receives ... and will announce" - (John 15:26 - "the Comfortor whom I will send" - "that one will witness concerning me"

We have the Spirit speaking in Acts 21:10,11 - "Thus says the Holy Spirit ..."

The Holy Spirit is the Advocate or Comforter in John 14 in the same way that Jesus Christ the Righteous is the Advocate in 1 John 2:1 - paracleton.

If the Person Jesus is the believer's Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1) then why is not the same word in John 14:16 also indicative of a Person ?

=============================
nine, the Bible describes the operation of the spirit as a force.
==============================

But the Bible speaks of sin in very personificational ways in Romans 7.

Sin deceives, takes opportunity, works out, dwells in me, wars against the law of good in the mind, seizes opportunity, deceived me, takes captive.

So if you read Romans 7 you will see that Paul speaks of sin as the virtual personifcation of evil - it is Satan himself expressed in fallen man.

My burden here though is to highlight that the living God and the living Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit in the Christian's experience. The giver of life should be one who has life. That which is not living should not be thought of as a giver of life. You cannot give what you do not have to give. So "a life giving Spirit" must mean that in this One is life.

=========================================
God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
===========================================

Notice also that in the same book when one did prophecy the text said "Thus says the Holy Spirit" (Acts 21:10,11) Would that not communicate that the Speaker is a Person? I mean as far as our limited human language would imply.

=========================
thus it simply not possible for 'some' of a person to be given here and some there.
=================================

I would like to study this point a little more. But initial comments:

I have never read this kind of translation into English of the passage you refer to. I would like you not to evade now and tell me which version of the English New Testament are you quoting?

How would you understand this?

"But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; And there are distinctions of ministries, yet the same Lord. And there are distinctions of operations, but the same God, who operates all things in all." (1 Cor. 12:6)

I would understand that God can distribute His riches to various members of the mystical Body of Christ. It does not destroy His unity or oneness because He does so.

He gives His Spirit without measure according to John 3:34. However, not one individual can fully express all the riches of the Spirit. A collective and corporate container of the Body of Christ manifests the riches of the Spirit.

So I am not familiar with "some spirit" in the prophecy of Joel as Peter quotes. And the idea of God distributing varied gifts of the Spirit or of even diverse riches of the Spirit into various members of Christ does not, to me, argue that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal force.

Robbie,

If the Holy Spirit is only a force, ie. the force like that of gravity - then why does the Scirpture tell me not to grieve the Holy Spirit ?

If I fly in an airplane or go up in a balloon, am I grieving the force of gravity?

Do I make gravity unhappy and grieved because I defy it?

Originally posted by jaywill
Robbie,

If the Holy Spirit is only a force, ie. the force like that of gravity - then why does the Scirpture tell me not to grieve the Holy Spirit ?

If I fly in an airplane or go up in a balloon, am I [b]grieving the force of gravity?

Do I make gravity unhappy and grieved because I defy it?[/b]

jaywill, i have quickly scanned through your reasons, which, seem on the surface quite reasonable, although, not strong enough for me to be convinced. if i can find the time, for tonight i must go with my wife, for she attends a Kingdom hall for a celebration of the last supper, she has also friends coming, so I must attend to their comfort, but given some time i will try to address these points, individually, what is clear, that this is a subject close to your heart and perhaps it has brought you some happiness in discussing it. 🙂

Originally posted by jaywill
Robbie,

If the Holy Spirit is only a force, ie. the force like that of gravity - then why does the Scirpture tell me not to grieve the Holy Spirit ?

If I fly in an airplane or go up in a balloon, am I [b]grieving the force of gravity?

Do I make gravity unhappy and grieved because I defy it?[/b]

for it is quite possible to 'grieve', or work against the good actions of the Holy Spirit, its a figure of speech i guess, nor would i be prepared to confer upon it a deeper meaning, certainly not assigning the spirit a personality!