56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
I think the peoples reaction to what Jesus said well explains alot
I agree as far as it does not matter if Melchizedek was Christ or not the point in Hebrews is well taken and at best if we are being honest is we can say Melchizedek was a type and shadow of Christ
Originally posted by checkbaiter Look, if people want to hang on to a trinity, that is fine with me. I still consider a brother in Christ as a brother.
I just do not believe the bible teaches a trinity. Jesus does not have to be God to redeem us, just his sinless son. It makes a whole lot more sense. I do not believe in turning "godhood" on and off, that too is illogical...🙂
I agree there was never any was any turning on and off of godhood.
All the rest I'll leave to God to work out on both of us.
Kelly
Originally posted by menace71 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
I think the peoples reaction to what Jesus said well explains alot
Originally posted by kd2acz In Genesis 14 we find...
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. (Genesis 14:18 ...[text shortened]... n what you know about this figure. No links please, I can do that on my own, what do you think?
"Melchizedek king of Salem" -- This Salem could refer to Jerusalem. Notice the salem ending to Jerusalem.
There were apparently more than one order of priesthood because Melchizedek was a priest before Moses was given the law and the Levitical priesthood was established. Here is what is in Hebrews about it:
Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. For He testifies:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
(Hebrews 7:4-19 NKJV)
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
This quote is from Psalm 110 which begins like this:
The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
And continues on in verse 4 with the quote from Hebrews above like this:
The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
This apparently is all speaking about Jesus. Wouldn't you agree?
The Instructor
Removed
Joined
08 Dec '04
Moves
100919
24 Jun '13 10:50
Originally posted by menace71 If Jesus did not pre-exist then what did He mean by this..........?
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 8:57-59
The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
Removed
Joined
08 Dec '04
Moves
100919
24 Jun '13 10:51
Originally posted by menace71 Melchizedek
I agree as far as it does not matter if Melchizedek was Christ or not the point in Hebrews is well taken and at best if we are being honest is we can say Melchizedek was a type and shadow of Christ
Originally posted by checkbaiter The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows tha ...[text shortened]... was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
I don't believe in scripture I've seen that Jesus "figuratively" existed, it
seems to me that you are adding to what it says to justify your stance.
With respect to what is real or not in God's foreknowledge, you are really
jumping through hoops here. I will say that I don't think this is something
I want to spend time debating, if you believe that, you believe that.
Kelly
Originally posted by checkbaiter The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows tha ...[text shortened]... was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
We know that Jesus was a man born of a woman, Mary. However, we are also told Jesus was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. The book of Hebrews tells us that He was definitely no angel and that God the Father addressed His only begotten Son with the title God. Jesus, Himself, claimed He had been given all authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection and that he was the judge of man and not the Father.
There is much more, but when you put it all together, the conclusion that Jesus is also God just as much as the Father is God is unavoidable to a reasonable thinking person.
Originally posted by checkbaiter The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows tha ...[text shortened]... was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
We can debate this is you really want about Christ I also will disagree because I believe He was in literal existence. He the son it is said that all things came into being by Him If He is not God then I don't know LOL
Originally posted by menace71 We can debate this is you really want about Christ I also will disagree because I believe He was in literal existence. He the son it is said that all things came into being by Him If He is not God then I don't know LOL
Manny
Don't we all exist in God's foreknowledge as checkbaiter says?
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
Originally posted by checkbaiter Hebrews 7:3 says that Melchizedek was without Father or mother and without genealogy (i.e., without one given in Scripture). However, Jesus did have a father, God, and a mother, Mary. He also had a genealogy, in fact, two—one in Matthew and one in Luke. Furthermore, this verse says that Melchizedek was “like the Son of God.” If he was “like” the Son, then he could not “be” the Son of God.
Certainly Melchizedek was someone of importance, mystical perhaps? What of Salem? is this a real place, or is it figuratively speaking. Abraham gave tithes, would this not be something done towards God? From where did he come and where did he go? I realize little is said about the man, but there must be some significance to the guy. Like the 'Son' I imagine this does not mean any ole guy, there is something special here.
Visitation by God perhaps in a way we can't understand? I suppose this could be a doctorate thesis for someone.
Originally posted by KellyJay Which is the debate, did we come from and God and Jesus being the Word
of God, or was Jesus no different that the rest of us in that respect?
Kelly
I was making reference to checkbaiter's claim that Jesus did not exits as a person at or before the time of Abraham and that Jesus only existed in the foreknowledge of God and that Abraham believed when he was told of the future existence of Jesus. My point was that we all existed in the foreknowledge of God, so that would not be a reason why Jesus would say, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" which caused the Jews to ask if He was claiming to have seen Abraham.
Of course I am not disputing the fact that Jesus did not exist as a man in the flesh at that time. However, He did exist in another personal form and appeared to Abraham in that personal form, so I believe Abraham did see Him.
Melchizedek
24 Jun '13 02:49
Back to Top