memorial of Christs death

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i did not institute it did I? Christ did, and what is more, he held it on an annual
occasion. Indeed, it was not until after the apostolic fathers died that it was changed
to a weekly celebration. Its not simply breaking bread, Christ stated that it was
symbolic. I do not believe that it should be done anywhere and any time, otherwise
Chr ...[text shortened]... e of Christ sacrifice, its a time for reflection, its not an
ordinary thing, after all, is it?

I of course accept that it is symbolic of Christ's death but it is not explicit in scripture as to when and how often. Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me".

The event you JW's have going on in your OP, is no more significant than any other occasion of breaking bread which could happen "whenever we are in remembrance of him" so why make it seem so?

Originally posted by divegeester
I of course accept that it is symbolic of Christ's death but it is not explicit in scripture as to when and how often. Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me".

The event you JW's have going on in your OP, is no more significant than any other occasion of breaking bread which could happen "whenever we are in remembrance of him" so why make it seem so?

because Jesus instituted it on an annual celebration, the passover. Can you find him
doing it anywhere else in the entire biblical cannon? nope neither can I. If Christ had
meant it to happen haphazardly as you say, there would be evidence of it, there is
none. We are trying to conform to the exact pattern set by Christ, even to the time
and date, Nisan 14th after sundown. It sends shivers down my spine when i look at
the full moon on that occasion and think back to the very day Christ sat in that upper
room and had a meal with his disciples for the last time, its just awesome.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because Jesus instituted it on an annual celebration, the passover. Can you find him
doing it anywhere else in the entire biblical cannon? nope neither can I. If Christ had
meant it to happen haphazardly as you say, there would be evidence of it, there is
none. We are trying to conform to the exact pattern set by Christ, even to the time
a ...[text shortened]... sat in that upper
room and had a meal with his disciples for the last time, its just awesome.

What evidence is there in the Bible that it was the Lord's wish to break bread annually? The Passover is significant for the content and meaning of the Passover, not how often it was celebrated. Your comments about "shivers down your spine because of the date and the full moon" emphasises how much you cults completely miss the point. Sorry but, shivers down your spine!!

Originally posted by divegeester
What evidence is there in the Bible that it was the Lord's wish to break bread annually? The Passover is significant for the content and meaning of the Passover, not how often it was celebrated. Your comments about "shivers down your spine because of the date and the full moon" emphasises how much you cults completely miss the point. Sorry but, shivers down your spine!!

what is it about holding it on an annual celebration that yet evades you?

you have no evidence that Christ meant it to be anything other than an annual
celebration, for there is none mentioned, no not once, in fact, what you are doing is
going beyond what is written.

I resent your term cult, in fact, i could take it to pieces, but what would that prove
other than you are prejudiced. You also stated elsewhere that we manipulate
persons for material gain, when presented with incontrovertible evidence to the
contrary, it was clear that the statement was a lie. Shall we also do the same with
your assertion of cult? shall we?

As for the memorial celebration, we celebrate it after the manner of Christ, this you
cannot deny, for the pattern is set in scripture.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As for the memorial celebration, we celebrate it after the manner of Christ, this you
cannot deny, for the pattern is set in scripture.

I do deny it; show where "the pattern is set in scripture"

JWs are a cult because a person has to join the earthly organisation to be valid for salvation. This also is not scripture.

In your OP you talk about the new covenant and Christ's last supper and the breaking of break being his body which is the passover lamb but you (JWs) completely deny the validity of it because you believe in justification by works! Look up passover lamb and show where the good works are. This whole thread is a hypocritical joke.

JW doctrines are so full of holes and man made ideas it's laughable to anyone with a elementary understanding of prophesy and the completed redemptive work of Christ.

Originally posted by divegeester
I do deny it; show where [b]"the pattern is set in scripture"

JWs are a cult because a person has to join the earthly organisation to be valid for salvation. This also is not scripture.

In your OP you talk about the new covenant and Christ's last supper and the breaking of break being his body which is the passover lamb but you (JWs) complet one with a elementary understanding of prophesy and the completed redemptive work of Christ.[/b]

the pattern that Christ set was to instigate the memorial on an annual celebration,
not a weekly celebration, not a make it up as you go along celebration, on an annual
occasion. This was also the apostolic tradition. You have no basis, i repeat no
basis for asserting that it was anything other than that, otherwise you would have
produced it, after being asked for the third time, you have nothing other than, i
make it up as i go along. Thats fine, but dont try to assert that its anything other
than, i make it up as i go along, because that's what it amounts to.

your definition of a cult i cannot find anywhere, therefore i have to assume that this
is also, i made it up as i went along , well again that is fine for the type of make it
up as i go along religion, i prefer to cite references to substantiate my claims.

characteristics of a cult.
American Family Foundation (14 Characteristics)

1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display
excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

we have no living leader, our leader is dead, his name was Jesus Christ

2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

we are preoccupied with helping others apply Biblical truths in their life, helping
them to overcome all manner of adversity.

3.The group is preoccupied with making money.

No interest in making money, in fact, many have given up lucrative careers or taken
part time work to help others

4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Persons are encouraged to make a constant appraisal of beliefs and why we profess
them.

5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues
, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts
about the group and its leader(s).

we practice none of these things, not one.

6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act,
and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change
jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to
live, how to discipline children, and so forth).

we recognise that the exercise of conscience is paramount.

7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and
members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the
group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

we are embroiled in humanity, not set apart from it.

8. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with
the wider society.

same as above.

9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example,
military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream
denominations).

we recognise that the authorities stand in their respective position, placed by God.

10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that
members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example:
collecting money for bogus charities).

we do not solicit for funds and comply with the law in every aspect of our lives.

11.The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.

Christ never tried to motive another through guilt, neither do we.

12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and
friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before
joining the group.

I have been a witness for fifteen years and my mother who is not loves it, at
present i have my two nieces staying for the school holidays , they will stay till
Wednesday.

13.Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.

we encourage people to do what they can, within their circumstances.

14.Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other
group members.

I was socialising with my brother and his girlfriend yesterday, they are not witnesses.

as we can see from the above, you statement is utterly baseless and nothing but
another big fat prejudice.

you are so thoroughly deviod of anything as to beg belief, we do not justify salvation
through works, we realise that everlasting life is a gift, the fact that we do works
demonstrates that we have a living faith. lie number three.

the rest of the post is not worth commenting upon, suffice to say, that when one has
a living faith, it cannot be hidden away, Christ stated of his followers, you are the
light of the world, it must find expression in, holy acts, acts of mercy, acts of
kindness, indeed, how will you reply to Christ upon his return when he asks you
what you did with your symbolic denarii? i made it up as i went along? 'here
master take what is yours, i know you are an exacting man, reaping where you did
not sow'. Indeed, what is the will of the father? that those who are sinners may be
reconciled to God and repentance, how indeed will they hear, unless someone is
sent, remarks Paul. All talk of prophesy and knowledge is utterly contemptible,
unless you love people enough to try to help them reconcile themselves back to
God, its a crashing symbol, a hollow piece of brass.

(Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not required, how intwesting, is not transubstantiation a catholic teaching?

It is a Catholic teaching in the sense that it is popular among Catholics and is found almost exclusively in Catholic theology. Catholics however are free to describe the Real Presence in other ways provided that they still recognise that the Eucharistic species are Jesus corporeally present.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because Jesus instituted it on an annual celebration, the passover. Can you find him
doing it anywhere else in the entire biblical cannon? nope neither can I. If Christ had
meant it to happen haphazardly as you say, there would be evidence of it, there is
none. We are trying to conform to the exact pattern set by Christ, even to the time
a ...[text shortened]... sat in that upper
room and had a meal with his disciples for the last time, its just awesome.

Can you find him
doing it anywhere else in the entire biblical cannon? nope neither can I. If Christ had
meant it to happen haphazardly as you say, there would be evidence of it, there is
none. We are trying to conform to the exact pattern set by Christ, even to the time
and date, Nisan 14th after sundown.

I am going to restate what I have said to you in the past on this subject. Acts clearly describes a ritual act of breaking the bread. In accordance with tradition, I see no reason to interpret this as an ordinary meal but rather as reference to a weekly practice of Eucharistic celebration. Again, to restate what I have to you before, Eucharist was clearly celebrated weekly and even daily in the early Church, even by St Polycarp. I see no reason why early gentile Christian would keep the day of the Jewish passover.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the pattern that Christ set was to instigate the memorial on an annual celebration,
not a weekly celebration, not a make it up as you go along celebration, on an annual
occasion. This was also the apostolic tradition. You have no basis, i repeat no
basis for asserting that it was anything other than that, otherwise you would have
produced i ...[text shortened]... .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.[/b]

You can quote whatever 'made up' opinions you want Robbie (all opinion is made up) - every Christian person I've ever met in my entire life bar none, think the JWs are cult because you are exclusive on the doctrine of salvation being linked to joining the organisation (and visa versa) - the rest is rhetoric for the social psychologists.

Also don't you even think about quoting 'clashing cymbals' dude - you are the biggest rant-head at rhp often falling out with people aggressively and for little apparent reason. Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean it's not right and it certainly won't stop me saying it.

Originally posted by Conrau K
It is a Catholic teaching in the sense that it is popular among Catholics and is found almost exclusively in Catholic theology. Catholics however are free to describe the Real Presence in other ways provided that they still recognise that the Eucharistic species are Jesus corporeally present.

as i suspected, so tell me dear Conrau, why would Jesus be present simply because of
bread and wine, which were after all, nothing more than a symbol when he instituted
the celebration?

Originally posted by divegeester
You can quote whatever 'made up' opinions you want Robbie (all opinion is made up) - every Christian person I've ever met in my entire life bar none, think the JWs are cult because you are exclusive on the doctrine of salvation being linked to joining the organisation (and visa versa) - the rest is rhetoric for the social psychologists.

Also don't yo what I'm saying doesn't mean it's not right and it certainly won't stop me saying it.

i have done nothing of the sort, i remained objective, I provided reason and
references, if you would make reference to those, you may do better, as it stands, its
just make it up as you go along.

'he who does not gather with me scatters', - Jesus Christ, you may want to think about
that when you are castigating other Christians.

we do not justify salvation through works, we realise that everlasting life is a gift, the fact that we do works demonstrates that we have a living faith.

So good works is not expected?

You are absolutely certain of your salvation without works?

You are included in the JW 144,000? (Even though God forbids man to limit the size of the kingdom).

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have done nothing of the sort, i remained objective, I provided reason and
references, if you would make reference to those, you may do better, as it stands, its
just make it up as you go along.

'he who does not gather with me scatters', - Jesus Christ, you may want to think about
that when you are castigating other Christians.

I'm not castigating you I'm challenging your religious cult. Again just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true!

I also understand why you and other JWs enjoy this type of exchange with other people -you want to feel like you are being persecuted because it reinforces your circular belief - "if I was persecuted you too will be persecuted"...Jesus.

You are not persecuted.

Originally posted by divegeester
So good works is not expected?

You are absolutely certain of your salvation without works?

You are included in the JW 144,000? (Even though God forbids man to limit the size of the kingdom).

you are talking about things that you have absolutely no idea about. Look how you
tried to assert that we emphasise salvation through works, it was a nonsense, and now
you are trying to assert that we guarantee salvation? dude i dont know where you are
getting this stuff from, but so far, you have not accurately conveyed one of our beliefs,
no not one. As for the Kingdom and the 144,000, the Bible mentions two distinct
groups, the 144,000 who are with the lamb on figurative mount Zion, and a great
crowd which no man was able to number out of all tribes , tongues and nations.
Please tell me who or what we believe those two groups to be and why? If you do not
know or cannot say, then why are you arguing against a belief that you have no idea
what it professes?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not castigating you I'm challenging your religious cult. Again just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true!

I also understand why you and other JWs enjoy this type of exchange with other people -you want to feel like you are being persecuted because it reinforces your circular belief - "if I was persecuted you too will be persecuted"...Jesus.

You are not persecuted.

you are talking nonsense, evidence was provided to you, on what a cult was, all you
had to offer was, i make it up as i go along therefore it must be true, there is a rather
interesting story about a fly, who after being full of crap , fell off the handle, i suggest
you learn the import of the story. If you have anything reasonable to state we can
consider that, but all this is, well a fly full of crap that fell of the handle.