Originally posted by checkbaiterThat's the standard trinitarian position, although unitarians would disagree. I'd point out that what RJ's post referred to about "before Abraham was I am [Yah]" is ambiguous, as are the repetitions about "I am the son of man". Jesus could be saying "before Abraham was God", but it could also be interpreted as "I am God" - the Jews starting to throw stones could apply to either interpretation, they might have wanted to assault him anyway.
So what are you trying to say? That Jesus pre-existed?
Originally posted by DeepThoughtAt a later time Jesus said, "I and My Father are one.”
That's the standard trinitarian position, although unitarians would disagree. I'd point out that what RJ's post referred to about "before Abraham was I am [Yah]" is ambiguous, as are the repetitions about "I am the son of man". Jesus could be saying "before Abraham was God", but it could also be interpreted as "I am God" - the Jews starting to throw s ...[text shortened]... s could apply to either interpretation, they might have wanted to assault him anyway.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
(John 10:30-33 NKJV)
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsBeing an Instructor does imply that your instructions are followed, but from what I can gather here, not many people seem to hold your instructions in high regard. Maybe you would be better describing yourself as The Postulator.
But I was never an advisor, only an Instructor. So it seems more fitting that I should be callled...
The Instructor
Originally posted by VelnsWell RJ does make a lot of posts. He does seem know his Bible though - when it comes to knowledge of the scriptures the does seem to know them (I will argue with him on these things, but I have a copy of the bible to hand when I do) - if only he'd give me the same courtesy when it came to scientific matters...
Being an Instructor does imply that your instructions are followed, but from what I can gather here, not many people seem to hold your instructions in high regard. Maybe you would be better describing yourself as The Postulator.
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Originally posted by galveston75From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
All the spirit beings in heaven were before Abraham. So what is the point here your making?
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
Eternity means What G-man? Can't be created if he lived in the days of eternity which means forever as Forever means without beginning and if this Ruler had a beginning then eternity can't apply to this ruler !!
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Well I'm not going to get back into this with you Manny. I know no matter what the scriptures say about Jesus being a creation which it cleary says in your Bible even by Jesus himself, you either refuse to see it or you have been blinded so that you can't, so to you it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
Eternity means What G-man? Can't be created if he lived in the days of eternity which means forever as Forever means without beginning and if this Ruler had a beginning then eternity can't apply to this ruler !!
Manny
But for others here I'll respond with this scripture that again is in your Bible that is cleary speaking of Jesus:
Proverbs 8:22-31
Good News Translation (GNT)
22 “The Lord created me first of all,
the first of his works, long ago.
23 I was made in the very beginning,
at the first, before the world began.
24 I was born before the oceans,
when there were no springs of water.
25 I was born before the mountains,
before the hills were set in place,
26 before God made the earth and its fields
or even the first handful of soil.
27 I was there when he set the sky in place,
when he stretched the horizon across the ocean,
28 when he placed the clouds in the sky,
when he opened the springs of the ocean
29 and ordered the waters of the sea
to rise no further than he said.
I was there when he laid the earth's foundations.
30 I was beside him like an architect,[a]
I was his daily source of joy,
always happy in his presence—
31 happy with the world
and pleased with the human race.
So is this speaking of some everyday angel? A human? God himself?
No... this is only speaking of God's son "Jesus" who as the Bible says, is his Father's "only begotten and created" son Jesus that had a beginning which would mean at some time in the very distant past did not exist unlike his Father Jehovah who has always existed and had no beginning.
So either you have to believe this scripture and many others that explain Jesus as being a creation or you don't. You have made your decision that he wasn't created in order to support the trinity and that is fine for you and your buddies.
But the Bible completely disagrees with this paganistic theory and that puts you very far from the Bible's truths................
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Originally posted by galveston75You know the writer is using poetry in speaking of the Wisdom of God. Wisdom is not actually a being or something that can be created. You are being deceptive in applying this to Jesus and claiming He was Michael the Arch Angel and the first creature created by God. Jesus is certainly a human and therefore a creature, however, scripture tells us that He is also the only begotten Son of God and therefore God as well. And as was pointed out, if His goings forth were from eternity, then He must also be eternal and uncreated with no beginning and therefore God as well.
Well I'm not going to get back into this with you Manny. I know no matter what the scriptures say about Jesus being a creation which it cleary says in your Bible even by Jesus himself, you either refuse to see it or you have been blinded so that you can't, so to you it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?
But for others here I'll respond with thi ganistic theory and that puts you very far from the Bible's truths................
You certainly can't believe God was ever without wisdom and had to create it.
The Instructor
Originally posted by galveston75This is a simple question what does or do the expression "Days of Eternity" mean? It's actually very simple.... Who? what? when? why? or how? if you apply this concept it will help you understand this as many scriptures.
Well I'm not going to get back into this with you Manny. I know no matter what the scriptures say about Jesus being a creation which it cleary says in your Bible even by Jesus himself, you either refuse to see it or you have been blinded so that you can't, so to you it really doesn't matter what I say, does it?
But for others here I'll respond with thi ...[text shortened]... ganistic theory and that puts you very far from the Bible's truths................
Manny
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Who? is Micah 5 speaking of ? A future ruler (Jesus) His days are from long a go from the days of eternity.
e·ter·ni·ty [ih-tur-ni-tee] taken from dictionary.com
noun, plural e·ter·ni·ties.
1.
infinite time; duration without beginning or end.
2.
eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.
3.
Theology . the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death.
4.
an endless or seemingly endless period of time: We had to wait an eternity for the check to arrive.
5.
eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Alright, but could it be this?....
Micah 5:2
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
Another Prophecy concerning Christ and it ties in with when Jesus told the Jews that before Abraham was I am
Manny
1. “Origins” literally signifies a “going out,” hence a beginning or birth, and thus the verse is saying that the birth of the Messiah has been determined, or appointed, from everlasting. In contrast to the Messiah who had an origin, the true God is without origin.
2. The ancient Jews read this verse and realized that it spoke of the birth and birthplace of the Messiah. One of the few things the Jews at the time of Jesus did understand about the Messiah was that he would be born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:3-6). Yet of the Jews who read, studied, and understood the verse, there is no record that any of them concluded from the wording that Jesus had to be “God incarnate.”
3. The context of Micah makes it clear that the “ruler” from Bethlehem will not be God. This ruler will be born, and have “brothers.” No Jew ever thought God could be born, and the thought of the Creator of the Heavens and earth having brothers was absurd to them. These verses are speaking of God’s anointed king, and the Word declares, not that this ruler will be God, but rather that Yahweh will be “his God” (v. 4). Thus, this text of Micah is clear: a child will be born in Bethlehem and the Israelites will be his brothers, but he will grow up to deliver and rule the nation and stand in the strength of Yahweh his God.
Morgridge, p. 120
Racovian Catechism, pp. 69-71