Micah 5

Originally posted by menace71
Take it how you will......It reads how it reads and this word eternity why use this word of the ruler ? And of course the messiah was born in Bethlehem (Translated means House of Bread BTW) so this does not nullify that He could be God


Manny

That reminds me of something. Didn't Jesus say He was the bread that came down from heaven or somethig to that effect?

I found it.

At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

(John 6:41-51 NKJV)

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
1. Any difficulty in understanding this verse is caused by the translators. Had they faithfully rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.” The point ...[text shortened]... , it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be “a god” or “divine.”

I informed you on the thread where you ask "Is Jesus God..." that the absence of the article is due to grammar and indicates the object of the clause. It has nothing to do with translating it "a god" or "God" which is determined by the context.

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
John 1:3 (short version)
1. Trinitarians use this verse to show that Christ made the world and its contents. However, that is not the case. What we have learned from the study of John 1:1 above will be helpful in properly interpreting this verse.
John 1:1-3
(1) In the beginning was the Word [the wisdom, plan or purpose of God], and the Word was with G ...[text shortened]... f the fact that in the original language the table and desk have a masculine or feminine gender.

You say:

In the beginning was the Word [the wisdom, plan or purpose of God], and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine.

This does not make sense to translate "Theos" as "divine" instead of "God" as is done in the other places. The only reason I can see for this is if someone wants to deny the divinity of Jesus and is attempting to mislead by watering down the strong wording of "Theos" by just referring to the qualities of God as being divine.

Then one could say this is just referring to a quality that God has and with that quality God made the world. Then that quality put on flesh and became the man Christ Jesus. I am very doubtful anything like that is meant by John.

However, if "Logos" is the name John gives to the second person in the Godhead before He becomes God in the flesh and given the name Yahshua (Jesus), then translating "Theos" as "divine" seems to be misleading and missing the point to me.

Also there is another Greek grammar rule by Colwell for use of the article in the Greek New Testament. The Rule states:

A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb.

So this would indicate "Theos" is definite, so it would be inappropriate to translate it as a quality, like divine.

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Hebrews 1:2
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. (NIV)
1. The Greek word translated “universe” (or “world” in many translations) is the plural of the Greek word aion, and actually means “ages.” There are other Greek words that mean “world,” such as kosmos and ...[text shortened]... hat He has spoken “in these last days” through His Son, and “given form to” the ages through him

You must remember that Satan got control of the world on Earth by tempting mankind to sin. So Satan could only tempt Jesus with what he then controlled and he did not control the whole universe.

We trinitarians have support that the entire universe was made through and by the pre-incarnate Jesus from other sources besides this one. For example:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

(Colossians 1:15-16 NKJV)

Jesus being the image of the invisible God and firstborn over all creation does not mean that the preincarnate Jesus was the first created being of God, but that He was the Only Begotten Son of God who is over all of creation because it is by Him all things were created.

And of course you already know about this verse;

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(John 1:3 NKJV)

The above refers to the Word in John 1:1 which is the name John gives the pre-incarnate Christ When He was with God the Father and the Holy Spirit at the beginning of creation. It goes on to say the following:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John 1:14 NKJV)

I think John was talking about this incident when they saw His glory.

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

(Matthew 17:1-2 NKJV)

However, the Son had humbled himself to become in the likeness of man, so He could give His blood to pay our sin debt and just before the crucifixion, He prayed to the Father to restore Him to the glory He had with the Father at the beginning of creation.

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

(John 17:5 NKJV)

Paul also speaks of Christ as having been in the form of God, but humbled himself to come in the likeness of man.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:5-11 NKJV)

And again:

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

(Hebrews 2:8-9 NKJV)

But after His resurrection Jesus tells His disciples:

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

(Matthew 28:18-19 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You must remember that Satan got control of the world on Earth by tempting mankind to sin. So Satan could only tempt Jesus with what he then controlled and he did not control the whole universe.

We trinitarians have support that the entire universe was made through and by the pre-incarnate Jesus from other sources besides this one. For example:

[b]He ...[text shortened]... 19 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Among other things you are saying here this makes no sense at all according to your belief this one really jumpos out: " Jesus being the image of the invisible God and firstborn over all creation does not mean that the preincarnate Jesus was the first created being of God, but that He was the Only Begotten Son of God who is over all of creation because it is by Him all things were created."

Well the Bible says what it says no matter what you think it says in some other mysterious language with other meanings you live by.
Jesus is cleary the "firstborn of ((((((ALL))))))) creation just as the Bible says.
And it also cleary says he is " the IMAGE of his father". Not his Father but an IMAGE of his Father.
Maybe an image on your planet means something else but on this planet it does not mean the same being or that they are one in the same.
And the "Firstborn" means exactly what it says, the first to be created by his Father Jehovah.

It still amazes me how you quote these scriptures that an 8 year old could read and understand and somehow with no rime or reason other then to stick to your guns no matter how rediclous it is to stick to the trinity or how stubborn you are or just plain fooled by satan.

On earth 1+1+1=3. But wherever planet you are from, it sure adds up differently.

Originally posted by galveston75
Among other things you are saying here this makes no sense at all according to your belief this one really jumpos out: " Jesus being the image of the invisible God and firstborn over all creation does not mean that the preincarnate Jesus was the first created being of God, but that He was the Only Begotten Son of God who is over all of creation because tan.

On earth 1+1+1=3. But wherever planet you are from, it sure adds up differently.

Yes, Jesus is the firstborn of the Father and also the Only begotten of the Father. I did not say Jesus, the Son of God, is the Father. Why do you keep saying I did?

Also on Earth 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, Jesus is the firstborn of the Father and also the Only begotten of the Father. I did not say Jesus, the Son of God, is the Father. Why do you keep saying I did?

Also on Earth 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

The Instructor

Because you keep saying he wasn't created... This is so luny that you don't even know what you've said..... Lol.

Originally posted by galveston75
Because you keep saying he wasn't created... This is so luny that you don't even know what you've said..... Lol.

The Holy Spirit was not created either. That fact does not make the Holy Spirit the Father either. The Son was begotten by the Father not created by the Father. All things that were created in the beginning was by and through the Son. The Son, Himself, is uncreated as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Holy Spirit was not created either. That fact does not make the Holy Spirit the Father either. The Son was begotten by the Father not created by the Father. All things that were created in the beginning was by and through the Son. The Son, Himself, is uncreated as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Instructor

The Holy Spirit and the gift of holy spirit are two different things. The Holy Spirit is God....holy spirit is Gods gift to us. In the bible the translators randomly interchanged the two, being they had a bias.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The Holy Spirit and the gift of holy spirit are two different things. The Holy Spirit is God....holy spirit is Gods gift to us. In the bible the translators randomly interchanged the two, being they had a bias.

The apostle Paul explains the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. However, I am referring to the person of the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke of as another Helper -

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper... But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

(John 14:16, 26 NKJV)

and Peter called God.

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

(Acts 5:3-4 NKJV)

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
Among other things you are saying here this makes no sense at all according to your belief this one really jumpos out: " Jesus being the image of the invisible God and firstborn over all creation does not mean that the preincarnate Jesus was the first created being of God, but that He was the Only Begotten Son of God who is over all of creation because tan.

On earth 1+1+1=3. But wherever planet you are from, it sure adds up differently.

look in the mirror .......G~Man you do the very thing you accuse others of doing.



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
look in the mirror .......G~Man you do the very thing you accuse others of doing.



Manny

Yeah right.....Lol.

Point blank Manny the Bible teaches no such thing as the trinity and it's a fool that lets satan convience that it does.
Satan owns this world right now and that means all things other then what is God's own.
So here you have so many religions that do not follow many of God's direct commands and the majority of them in all lands believe in the trinty on some level.
So since satan does rule this world then it would only be true that he controls most religions on this planet and the reason for this is to lead all he can from God.
He has certianly done it with this trinity foolishness..............