18 Sep 15
It is entirely possible to find scriptural support for just about any extreme doctrine. For example:
1. All people are saved.and are given eternal life
2. Only those who refrain from sin and are righteous will get eternal life
3. Only those who profess faith in Christ will get eternal life
3. All people from Adam until the present who are not accepted into Gods Kingdom will be tormented for all eternity
All of the above are extreme doctrines and all can find biblical support. However believing that any one of the above is the truth means that you are ignoring the rest of the bible.
A moderate Christian doctrine which follows the principle of temporarily ignoring extreme statements [until a better interpretation can be found] and taking the most common and logical interpretation [starting with Christ himself first] might be along the following lines:
- Christ died for the sin brought into the world by Adam [ie the PAST SINS & sin in the flesh ]
- Christ death is not a licence to sin as some think [ ie Christ did not die for their FUTURE SINS]
- He died for all of mankind not just Christians
- Whoever believes in Christ will have eternal life
- To 'believe in Christ' is not the narrow interpretation of just professing belief with ones mouth, To believe means to accept the doctrine of Christ and the following of His commandments as Christ explained. It is those who are DOERS are the ones that Christ will find worthy of eternal life as Christ himself explained many times.
- The most important teaching in the Bible is concerned with personal conduct - love, charity, good works, mercy, abstaining from worldliness and sins of the flesh.
- The most important teaching is not faith. Faith is just a stepping stone to greater things leading to superior personal conduct, as Paul and the Apostles explained. Faith on its own cannot stand. Love on its own can stand and will stand.
Why do people gravitate to extremism? Maybe they find it attractive or is it just fashionable? Or maybe the clan mentality is important ie the need to belong to a group of like-minded Christians?
Seems like many Christians these days are moving away from moderation ?
18 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Faith vs. works.
It is entirely possible to find scriptural support for just about any extreme doctrine. For example:
...
Seems like many Christians these days are moving away from moderation ?
Why do you assume that no one here has works? You bang this drum so loudly and incessantly that it seems you are the herald of Judgement Day, warning slackers to 'get with the program'. Why do you keep this up when there is absolutely ZERO evidence that Christians here only profess faith with the mouth and have no feeling in their hearts and therefore no works? It appears to me that you are really "singing to the choir" on this, but you argue this almost constantly, in every thread you can where Christians say ANYthing about their faith. You also seem to lend more credence to the idea that the atheists here are MORE likely to be "saved" than any of the Christians. You constantly mock and deride Christians for their beliefs and yet you are banging a drum that doesn't exist. Why do you assume that no one here has works?
Sounds like Judgement to me. How is this "following Christ"?
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19 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999This kind of bible belief is what keeps Christians defeated in this life. They are forever trying to do works to please God/Jesus and never able to achieve their goal.
It is entirely possible to find scriptural support for just about any extreme doctrine. For example:
1. All people are saved.and are given eternal life
2. Only those who refrain from sin and are righteous will get eternal life
3. Only those who profess faith in Christ will get eternal life
3. All people from Adam until the present who are not accep ...[text shortened]... e-minded Christians?
Seems like many Christians these days are moving away from moderation ?
Let's take these one at a time....
Even what you call "moderate Christian doctrine" has a "lukewarm" feel about it...remember what Jesus said about "lukewarm"...
- Christ died for the sin brought into the world by Adam [ie the PAST SINS & sin in the flesh ]
okay
- Christ death is not a licence to sin as some think [ ie Christ did not die for their FUTURE SINS]
No, it is not a license to sin, but you better hope he died for your future sins, because he cannot be crucified again.
Heb 6:4
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
Heb 9:12-13
but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NKJV
Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV
- He died for all of mankind not just Christians
Every one should know this, but those who reject him are not redeemed.
- To 'believe in Christ' is not the narrow interpretation of just professing belief with ones mouth, To believe means to accept the doctrine of Christ and the following of His commandments as Christ explained. It is those who are DOERS are the ones that Christ will find worthy of eternal life as Christ himself explained many times.
To believe is to make him Lord, period. If he is Lord, I do his will not my own. But I cannot keep this perfectly and he knows that. So I confess or agree when I sin, that Jesus is right and I am wrong so that I will no longer be a slave to sin.
When I do sin, the "seed" or holy spirit that he created in me is not affected. My soul and my mind are affected. The spirit is impenetrable by sin. It is sealed, incorruptible. I will show you the scripture reference if you wish, but I think you know it.
However, if I sin, then I am putting myself under the authority of Satan, who comes to kill, steal and destroy.
I don't want this, so I repent, confess and agree with Jesus that I was wrong and come back under his authority.
- The most important teaching in the Bible is concerned with personal conduct - love, charity, good works, mercy, abstaining from worldliness and sins of the flesh.
No. The most important teaching is to love God with all my heart, soul and mind, and my neighbor as myself. Or better yet, love one another as Jesus loved them, and be thankful. Praise God continually with thanksgiving.
- The most important teaching is not faith. Faith is just a stepping stone to greater things leading to superior personal conduct, as Paul and the Apostles explained. Faith on its own cannot stand. Love on its own can stand and will stand.
Actually the more important thing is to "renew your mind" according to the scriptures. Put on the "mind of Christ". Know who you are in Christ. Learn that God is not angry with you, instead learn that he loves you. Learn to operate the manifestations of the spirit, else it is like charging Hell with a water pistol.
19 Sep 15
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterIt would seem that the most important thing is to do as Jesus taught us to pray.
This kind of bible belief is what keeps Christians defeated in this life. They are forever trying to do works to please God/Jesus and never able to achieve their goal.
Let's take these one at a time....
Even what you call "moderate Christian doctrine" has a "lukewarm" feel about it...remember what Jesus said about "lukewarm"...
[b]- Christ died ...[text shortened]... to operate the manifestations of the spirit, else it is like charging Hell with a water pistol.
The first thing he said we should pray for is "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name...". If we pray that and act in harmony with it all these other things will be added to us. Of course we all know what God's Name is. It is the Name no one else on Earth can use except His people.
(Acts 15:14) Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.
In the 1st century they were called Christians.
Who are those people for God's Name in our day?
edit: btw that name is not Jesus. Jesus name means "Jehovah is salvation". So, those people are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999"- He died for all of mankind not just Christians "
It is entirely possible to find scriptural support for just about any extreme doctrine. For example:
1. All people are saved.and are given eternal life
2. Only those who refrain from sin and are righteous will get eternal life
3. Only those who profess faith in Christ will get eternal life
3. All people from Adam until the present who are not accep ...[text shortened]... e-minded Christians?
Seems like many Christians these days are moving away from moderation ?
Why do you think anyone believes He only died for just Christians?
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by checkbaiterYou are basically agreeing with me on the important things.
This kind of bible belief is what keeps Christians defeated in this life. They are forever trying to do works to please God/Jesus and never able to achieve their goal.
Let's take these one at a time....
Even what you call "moderate Christian doctrine" has a "lukewarm" feel about it...remember what Jesus said about "lukewarm"...
[b]- Christ died ...[text shortened]... to operate the manifestations of the spirit, else it is like charging Hell with a water pistol.
Can you explain this further because I do not understand what it means :
This kind of bible belief is what keeps Christians defeated in this life.
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by roigamFirst, it is not the Jehovah Witnesses. The JWs have made thousands of false predictions about the coming of Christ and the end times for they to be any kind of 'chosen people'. If God were actually with them you would think they would have gotten at least one prediction correct.
It would seem that the most important thing is to do as Jesus taught us to pray.
The first thing he said we should pray for is "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name...". If we pray that and act in harmony with it all these other things will be added to us. Of course we all know what God's Name is. It is the Name no one else on Earth can use e ...[text shortened]... us. Jesus name means "Jehovah is salvation". So, those people are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.
Next the people God is interested is stated clearly here:
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Act 10:34-35)
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayOk then ... If Christ died for all of mankind then the sins of all of mankind even those who did not know of Christ were paid for.
"- He died for all of mankind not just Christians "
Why do you think anyone believes He only died for just Christians?
Christ also condemns in very strong language those who just call him Lord, Lord without doing what he says. Christ is interested in righteousness and good works, hence his Matt 25 statement about sheep and goats.
Therefore even someone that never heard of Christ [lets say living in the Amazon jungle], Christ did in fact die for him, and his sins are paid for. Therefore on the day of judgment Christ will judge him by his works.
I am in no way condemning the route of the Christian. A Christian is supposed to believe in Christ. His faith should transform him to do good works. Christ will judge him as well as to whether or not he is worthy.
19 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I believe He did indeed die for all mankind, each and everyone one. Saying that it is clear
Ok then ... If Christ died for all of mankind then the sins of all of mankind even those who did not know of Christ were paid for.
Christ also condemns in very strong language those who just call him Lord, Lord without doing what he says. Christ is interested in righteousness and good works, hence his Matt 25 statement about sheep and goats.
Therefo ...[text shortened]... transform him to do good works. Christ will judge him as well as to whether or not he is worthy.
He died for those that do not know Him. Saying that, it means that everyone can receive
forgiveness, that is not saying that everyone will or has been saved.
I agree with you Christ does condemn in strong language those who just call Him Lord,
Lord without doing what He says. He is quite clear about those that do not pick up their
crosses and follow Him, He is also clear that those that do not believe in Him are
condemned already.
The world isn't divided with Christians and non-Christians who know the Lord Jesus, I can
imagine there are more than a few that know the Lord, that know nothing of the word
"Christian" we are not saved by being "Christian" we are saved by our Lord Jesus.
Scripture is quite clear on two points, first being we are all sinners and have fallen short,
and another we are not saved by our works, but our works are matters of obeying Him,
His work is our salvation what He did on the cross, our work is to obey Him.
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19 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Sin conscience, always afraid of not pleasing God/Jesus. Always afraid of losing ones salvation, not knowing it is nearly impossible, and basically in a defeated mode which is right where Satan wants us, controlled.
You are basically agreeing with me on the important things.
Can you explain this further because I do not understand what it means :
[b]This kind of bible belief is what keeps Christians defeated in this life.[/b]
Not seeing the big picture and moving on from the rudimentary principles, like "touch not", taste not". And never fully being free to stand in the liberty in which Christ has set us free.
19 Sep 15
3 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterJust shows how two people can read the same Bible and come away with polar opposite interpretations.
Sin conscience, always afraid of not pleasing God/Jesus. Always afraid of losing ones salvation, not knowing it is nearly impossible, and basically in a defeated mode which is right where Satan wants us, controlled.
Not seeing the big picture and moving on from the rudimentary principles, like "touch not", taste not". And never fully being free to stand in the liberty in which Christ has set us free.
Sin conscience is a very good thing. .. it keeps the believer in Christ focused of living righteously
Afraid of not pleasing God is a very good thing .. it makes you try harder to avoid sin and do good works
Afraid of losing ones salvation is a very good thing .. it makes you try even harder to please God
Very good things indeed.
Thinking that you have nothing to do, or that your sins are covered or sin is not held against you - that is what is destructive, it leads to laziness and complacency and that is where sin can take over the life of the Christian
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (Php 2:12-16)
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling .. there is work to be done, there is labour in the vineyard of Christ .. its not a easy road full of claims that 'I am saved' etc
Not sure what the 'taste not touch not' stuff has to do with it.
Christ has set us free of the Law of Moses .. not sure how that applies as the commandments of Christ still are required of us.
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19 Sep 15
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Sin conscience is a very good thing. .. it keeps the believer in Christ focused of living righteously
Just shows how two people can read the same Bible and come away with polar opposite interpretations.
Sin conscience is a very good thing. .. it keeps the believer in Christ focused of living righteously
Afraid of not pleasing God is a very good thing .. it makes you try harder to avoid sin and do good works
Afraid of losing ones salvation is a very good ...[text shortened]... aw of Moses .. not sure how that applies as the commandments of Christ still are required of us.
Afraid of not pleasing God is a very good thing .. it makes you try harder to avoid sin and do good works
Afraid of losing ones salvation is a very good thing .. it makes you try even harder to please God
Very good things indeed.
This is not a good thing.
It is no longer a love relationship. It is a works/law type of relationship.
You cannot train the flesh.
It is the heart that is at fault and corrupt and sick beyond repair.
When we get born again God gives us a "new" heart.
His love is unconditional. There is a world of difference than what you proclaim.
The works were already done in Christ. This is what sets us free.
Not to sin. Anyone who has the license to sin mentality is not born again.
They are missing the whole point of the sacrifice of Jesus.
Let's say for example a Father child relationship.
#1. The father is very strict. Every time the child does wrong, he gets scolded or spanked. So much so, that the child is very afraid of the father. The child is afraid to do much of anything for fear of punishment. The child loves the father, but is confused because the father is so harsh. In fact the father has threatened to disown the child unless the child straightens up.
#2. This father is very loving. When the child does wrong, the child is warned but not scolded. The father reassures the child of his love no matter what the child does.
The father explains how the child will be hurt by outside forces when he/she does wrong.
The child knows that the father will never disown him/her. This child loves the father and wants to please the father not because they are afraid, but because he/she loves the father. This child knows that the father will never leave nor forsake him/her.
Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
NIV
Heb 13:5-6
For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." 6 So we may boldly say:
"The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?"
NKJV
Rom 11:29-32
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
NKJV