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    17 Sep '15 07:04
    Elsewhere I have quoted from one of my favourite novels, Shelley's 'Frankenstein':

    “Satan has his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and detested.”

    There can be little else worse than to be alone, truly alone. To roam this planet, abandoned and without hope. Each of us is a 'monster', a creature of our environment, our upbringing and interactions with the world...and our genes. It could be suggested that we are made up of components just like Shelley's creature; and like that misbegotten child, we are capable of great love and of great rage.

    Questions: Can we change our component parts? Do we blame our creator(s) for making us the way we are? Has our creator turned away from us in disgust like Frankenstein did to his creature? Does he (it) blame us for his (its) passions? Indeed can the clay say to potter "why have you made me thus"?

    Further questions, thoughts?
  2. Standard memberlemon lime
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    17 Sep '15 08:19
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Elsewhere I have quoted from one of my favourite novels, Shelley's 'Frankenstein':

    [b]“Satan has his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and detested.”


    There can be little else worse than to be alone, truly alone. To roam this planet, abandoned and without hope. Each of us is a 'monster', a creature of ou ...[text shortened]... ? Indeed can the clay say to potter "why have you made me thus"?

    Further questions, thoughts?[/b]
    m=E/(c×c)
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    17 Sep '15 10:45
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Elsewhere I have quoted from one of my favourite novels, Shelley's 'Frankenstein':

    [b]“Satan has his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and detested.”


    There can be little else worse than to be alone, truly alone. To roam this planet, abandoned and without hope. Each of us is a 'monster', a creature of ou ...[text shortened]... ? Indeed can the clay say to potter "why have you made me thus"?

    Further questions, thoughts?[/b]
    Are you one of the Munsters in disguise ?
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    17 Sep '15 15:261 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Elsewhere I have quoted from one of my favourite novels, Shelley's 'Frankenstein':

    [b]“Satan has his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and detested.”


    There can be little else worse than to be alone, truly alone. To roam this planet, abandoned and without hope. Each of us is a 'monster', a creature of ou ...[text shortened]... ? Indeed can the clay say to potter "why have you made me thus"?

    Further questions, thoughts?[/b]
    I am vaguely reminded of Twain's The Mysterious Stranger, at

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3186/3186-h/3186-h.htm#link2H_4_0001

    Chapter 2, from "A kind of awe.." to the end of the chapter.

    As to your questions, if a person needs a grand narrative for their life, none better than being in an emotionally tinged relationship with one's creator. The relationship you suggest seems like that between some of my Jewish friends and their creator. God learned something He didn't like about Himself, by seeing the outcome of His creation. We are a reflection.

    Edit: or perhaps we are the component parts of God.
  5. Joined
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    18 Sep '15 06:052 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    I am vaguely reminded of Twain's The Mysterious Stranger, at

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3186/3186-h/3186-h.htm#link2H_4_0001

    Chapter 2, from "A kind of awe.." to the end of the chapter.

    As to your questions, if a person needs a grand narrative for their life, none better than being in an emotionally tinged relationship with one's creator. The rela ...[text shortened]... ome of His creation. We are a reflection.

    Edit: or perhaps we are the component parts of God.
    "We are a reflection"

    Interesting you say this. Twain plays with the idea that people are as unimportant as ants, but speaking objectively and not as a Christian; if a "God" exists and has created us, then I think Shelley's creature describes us better I feel.

    The creature was Victors first attempt and while he knew how to do it, he was not skilled in the craft and the resultant being is superficially abhorrent, but capable of much beauty. Rejection, murder and carnage ensues and the creature eventually blackmails him into creating a mate for him.

    There is a nice piece in the story at this point where Victor is in his brightly lit laboratory, covered in the blood of the female he is assembling when he suddenly pauses and looking at the blood and gore he decides to abandon the work. He turns to the window and peers out into the darkness to see the gross disfigured face of the creature looking menacingly back at him.

    It is my feeling that this was not actually the face of the creature looking in, but instead the reflection of the creator looking back at himself in the glass - a brightly lit room and darkness outside - one would only see one's reflection. The creator saw what he had become, a grotesque being full of all the lusts and hatred he had projected onto the creature. And did the creature exist at all, was it merely a split of Victor's own twisted personality.
  6. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    18 Sep '15 08:36
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Questions: Can we change our component parts? Do we blame our creator(s) for making us the way we are?
    Further questions, thoughts?
    Whether our creator is a god or Evolution the question is the same.

    Can the murderer blame his genes or god?

    Do we have free-will?
    Are the atoms in our brains deterministic or random or governed by "spirit" .
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    18 Sep '15 14:03
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Whether our creator is a god or Evolution the question is the same.

    Can the murderer blame his genes or god?

    Do we have free-will?
    Are the atoms in our brains deterministic or random or governed by "spirit" .
    Forget/put aside "God" for a moment. Let's us imagine that we are a creation of another race of beings. The movie Prometheus tries to address this, not particularly well, but it makes a decent fist of the creation premise. Frankenstein was co-titled, The Modern Prometheus and it of course deals primarily with the creation of man, his abondonment and his subsequent revenge on his creator.

    To your point about genes though; the creature was a composite of many genes, as each of us are. The creature was put together from the dregs of society, murders etc. But Shelley casts the creature as intelligent and capable of learning and absorbing sophisticated ideas about life and right and wrong. She was clearly saying that irrespective of our origins, we are much much greater than the sum of our component parts, our genes.
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    18 Sep '15 15:25
    Originally posted by divegeester
    [b]"We are a reflection"

    Interesting you say this. Twain plays with the idea that people are as unimportant as ants, but speaking objectively and not as a Christian; if a "God" exists and has created us, then I think Shelley's creature describes us better I feel.

    The creature was Victors first attempt and while he knew how to do it, he was no ...[text shortened]... e. And did the creature exist at all, was it merely a split of Victor's own twisted personality.[/b]
    The Frankenstein story packs more meaning than Twain's story.

    But I'd say its point about insignificance is that the creatures are insignificant to their creator but are not insignificant to themselves. The narrator is aghast at how Satan treats his creatures, and ironically Satan is able to seem lovable (to the narrator) anyway -- but not to the reader. There is stuff here to be unpacked about the contradictions of western religion.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '15 18:39
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Elsewhere I have quoted from one of my favourite novels, Shelley's 'Frankenstein':

    [b]“Satan has his companions, fellow-devils, to admire and encourage him; but I am solitary and detested.”


    There can be little else worse than to be alone, truly alone. To roam this planet, abandoned and without hope. Each of us is a 'monster', a creature of ou ...[text shortened]... ? Indeed can the clay say to potter "why have you made me thus"?

    Further questions, thoughts?[/b]
    Interesting premise for a thread. I salute you. 🙂
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '15 18:42
    Originally posted by divegeester
    [b]"We are a reflection"

    Interesting you say this. Twain plays with the idea that people are as unimportant as ants, but speaking objectively and not as a Christian; if a "God" exists and has created us, then I think Shelley's creature describes us better I feel.

    The creature was Victors first attempt and while he knew how to do it, he was no ...[text shortened]... e. And did the creature exist at all, was it merely a split of Victor's own twisted personality.[/b]
    Spot on.

    Quite a masterpiece for a young woman who created the story on a whim out of what some may consider an alcohol-fueled weekend dare.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '15 18:45
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Whether our creator is a god or Evolution the question is the same.

    Can the murderer blame his genes or god?

    Do we have free-will?
    Are the atoms in our brains deterministic or random or governed by "spirit" .
    Yes, we have free will, and created from the mind of God, it could not be any other way.

    In many ways, man is the director of his own destiny. Some use this for evil, some for good.
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '15 18:50
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Forget/put aside "God" for a moment. Let's us imagine that we are a creation of another race of beings. The movie Prometheus tries to address this, not particularly well, but it makes a decent fist of the creation premise. Frankenstein was co-titled, The Modern Prometheus and it of course deals primarily with the creation of man, his abondonment and his ...[text shortened]... pective of our origins, we are much much greater than the sum of our component parts, our genes.
    The creation suffers even more the less perfect the creator. There must come a point at which the creation is entitled to receive an answer to the "Why have you created me thus?" question.

    Thank goodness for free will. Other "creators" may not be able to confer this on their "creations", and the creations suffer for it. Thus revenge becomes an entirely appropriate motive if the creator is less skilled than necessary to create.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '15 18:54
    Originally posted by JS357
    The Frankenstein story packs more meaning than Twain's story.

    But I'd say its point about insignificance is that the creatures are insignificant to their creator but are not insignificant to themselves. The narrator is aghast at how Satan treats his creatures, and ironically Satan is able to seem lovable (to the narrator) anyway -- but not to the reader. There is stuff here to be unpacked about the contradictions of western religion.
    Not sure I really see anything in the story that contradicts or "blames" religion, specifically western religion. (Don't get me started how many eastern religions are barely a 'religion'.)
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    19 Sep '15 01:372 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Quite a masterpiece for a young woman who created the story on a whim out of what some may consider an alcohol-fueled weekend dare.
    I suspect that Percy as an experienced published writer may have had a helping hand. But yes it is an extraordinary piece of work from a young woman - have you read it? Mary is also taking a dim view of men throughout the story. There is a theme of men lusting after power and only finding dispair, while women are portrayed as the victims; dying in childbirth, being executed for the murders of the creature and created by man for the creature's pleasure and company. It's powerful stuff for that day and age.
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    19 Sep '15 01:46
    Originally posted by JS357
    The Frankenstein story packs more meaning than Twain's story.

    But I'd say its point about insignificance is that the creatures are insignificant to their creator but are not insignificant to themselves. The narrator is aghast at how Satan treats his creatures, and ironically Satan is able to seem lovable (to the narrator) anyway -- but not to the reader. There is stuff here to be unpacked about the contradictions of western religion.
    What I like about these analogous stories is that they more or less bypass "religion" and get straight to the nub of the responsibility of a creator for his/its creation. What key pieces would you expand on to explain any contradictions you see in wester religion?
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