Originally posted by Coletti "if we don't have free will, then our actions are forced."
Free will entails being about to choice between to incompatible actions - between good and evil. If you think about it, one will not do anything against their will unless they a physically forced or coerced. A person who's will is to do only evil - is not then forced to do evil. And a perso ...[text shortened]... ill itself was changed by force.
So free will is an oxymoron. Will is not free to change.
You really need to write that dictionary as those of us versed in English find it difficult to understand Colettiese. Suffice to say that pretty much every proposition you've made in this post is factually untrue: people do things against their will all the time without being PHYSICALLY forced, there is no such animal as a person's who's will is to do ONLY good or evil and a person's will ("a disposition to act according to principles or ends"😉 changes regularly as their principles or desires change. Free will entails an ability to make choices, period; not merely to make choices between good and evil. If I choose to go to the Star Wars movie instead of a Yankee game (I wouldn't), I'd be exercising my free will. Your post is nonsense wrapped in gibberish.
Originally posted by no1marauder You really need to write that dictionary as those of us versed in English find it difficult to understand Colettiese. Suffice to say that pretty much every proposition you've made in this post is factually untrue: people do things against their will all the time without being PHYSICALLY forced, there is no such animal as a person's who's will ...[text shortened]... game (I wouldn't), I'd be exercising my free will. Your post is nonsense wrapped in gibberish.
Give an example of doing something against your will that is not forced.
Originally posted by Coletti Give an example of doing something against your will that is not forced.
Don't change your criteria; you said PHYSICALLY forced. I want to go see the Yankees play the Red Sox as I love to watch baseball; my will i.e. disposition to act is to go to the game. However, my supermodel wife wants me to go with her to a cocktail party at Warren Buffett's house. I decide, ("choose"😉 based on all relevant factors, that I am going to Warren's house even though that is acting against my will i.e. MY dispositions. I have not been PHYSICALLY forced, but I have acted against my will. Could you try to make the questions harder next time? And where did good and evil come in?
Originally posted by no1marauder Don't change your criteria; you said PHYSICALLY forced. I want to go see the Yankees play the Red Sox as I love to watch baseball; my will i.e. disposition to act is to go to the game. However, my supermodel wife wants me to go with her to a cocktail party at Warren Buffett's house. I decide, ("choose"😉 based on all relevant factors, that I ...[text shortened]... will. Could you try to make the questions harder next time? And where did good and evil come in?
You were convinced that the better thing to do was go to the cocktail party with you supermodel wife. You were not forced to do something against your will. You are confusing will with wish. You wish you did not have to make a decision, or you could have done something else.
You feel like you had no choice - or that the situation dictated your decision, but that only means you felt pressured to change your mind - the the change of mind was nothing more that a change of what you were willing to do. The only thing your will did was dictate your actions - but your will could not control the situation - which dictated what you willed. Thus you un-free will dictated your choice and subsequent actions.
The alternative would be you were physically forced to go against you will. Instead your will was changed by the situation. You freely acted according to your will.
Originally posted by no1marauder I am still having problems with these concepts; could you cite me to something that gives a fuller explanation? I know it can be extremely difficult to explain such things in a short post in the forums. Thanks in advance.
I couldn't find anything exactly like the discussion we're having, but I think the following articles might give you a good mental picture:
Originally posted by Coletti You were convinced that the better thing to do was go to the cocktail party with you supermodel wife. You were not forced to do something against your will. You are confusing will with wish. You wish you did not have to make a decision, or you could have done something else.
You feel like you had no choice - or that the situation dictated your decision ...[text shortened]... the situation. You freely acted according to your will.
Don't confuse willing and wishing.
Please reconcile this statement from this post:
Instead your will was changed by the situation
with this one from the post on the other page, Mr. Logic:
Originally posted by lucifershammer I couldn't find anything exactly like the discussion we're having, but I think the following articles might give you a good mental picture:
Thank you, LH; I will read these and comment if I find it necessary.
EDIT: Found this quote in the first article which is very relevant to our resident fundies: Human beings like the idea of hell—perhaps better than God does.
Originally posted by no1marauder Please reconcile this statement from this post:
Instead your will was changed by the situation
with this one from the post on the other page, Mr. Logic:
Will is not free to change.
What I mean is your will is not something you can freely change yourself. Your choices are not forced against your will, that are according to your will.
Free will implies you can change your will at will (so to speak) and thus choose other than what you did. Have your ever choosen to do something that you did not do?
Originally posted by Coletti What I mean is your will is not something you can freely change yourself. Your choices are not forced against your will, that are according to your will.
Free will implies you can change your will at will (so to speak) and thus choose other than what you did. Have your ever choosen to do something that you did not do?
Free Will - 1) The power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law;
2) The ability to choose between alternatives so that the choice and action are to an extent creatively determined by the conscious subject.
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary
You have again tried to change the definition of a term from its standard meaning to one that makes your argument, by its terms, true. Free will, of course, doesn't and couldn't imply that you choose something that you didn't do; it merely implies that you COULD have chosen differently. Whether that is an illusion or not, I leave to the navel gazers; from my point of view the choices I make are determined by my free will which is not under any non-physical restraints.
Originally posted by no1marauder Free Will - 1) The power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law;
2) The ability to choose between alternatives so that the choice and action are to an extent creatively determined by the conscious subject.
...[text shortened]... determined by my free will which is not under any non-physical restraints.
How do you know you COULD have chosen differently if you have never chosen differently.
Free will is a philosophical concept - Websters is not philosophy.
Parroting Webster does not demonstrate you understand the concept and it's implications. If you consider the concept "navel gazing" then you really have nothing usefull to say about it.
Originally posted by Coletti How do you know you COULD have chosen differently if you have never chosen differently.
Free will is a philosophical concept - Websters is not philosophy.
Parroting Webster does not demonstrate you understand the concept and it's implications. If you consider the concept "navel gazing" then you really have nothing usefull to say about it.
It's pointless to discuss any concepts with somebody who merely changes definitions at the drop of a hat so they fit into his preconceived world view. Please re-read the passage with Humpty Dumpty in Alice Through the Looking Glass for my opinion of your debating "techniques". "How do you know anything" is a useless exercise in intellectual masturbation; if you deny human ability to know anything what the hell is the point of humans discussing it???? I accept the concept of free will in its standard meaning; I do not accept Humpty Dumpty-Coletti's constant attempts to rewrite the English language so it can be made to fit into his superstitions.
Originally posted by Coletti You were convinced that the better thing to do was go to the cocktail party with you supermodel wife. You were not forced to do something against your will. You are confusing will with wish. You wish you did not have to make a decision, or you could have done something else.
You feel like you had no choice - or that the situation dictated your decision ...[text shortened]... the situation. You freely acted according to your will.
Don't confuse willing and wishing.
Apparently you never had a supermodel wife, or you would know what no1 means.
Blame me though, I introduced them.
Originally posted by Coletti What I mean is your will is not something you can freely change yourself. Your choices are not forced against your will, that are according to your will.
Free will implies you can change your will at will (so to speak) and thus choose other than what you did. Have your ever choosen to do something that you did not do?
i am not sure i understand your position correctly. from what i gather, you say that free will is illusory because one cannot do anything other than one's will. to me, this statement is contradictory and what you describe sounds nothing more than a compatibilist notion of free will.
how does your view differ from the compatibilist view which says that free will and determinism coexist?
Mortal and venial sin
08 Jun '05 17:30
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